Strange, right . I mean, there will be in that hearing room, we expect, Democratic Senators asking questions of Brett Kavanagh and Christine Blasey ford. And then when its the republican senators time, they will not say anything and instead they will defer to this pinch hitter, this outside counsel who has come in. That does not happen in confirmation hearings. We think that it hasnt happened in decades, if at all, in modern times. That announcement that they were going to do that over the objections of one of the two witnesses at the hearing, and then the announcement that they had hired somebody but were not allowed to know who it is, its all so weird. You know, im ready to stand corrected by a senate historian, but i believe there has never been, never been outside counsel asking questions in a confirmation hearing. Only in the major and unusual and special investigation hearings like watergate have they done that. So its beyond unusual. I believe in confirmation hearings. Its never been done. If it is going to be done, why the identity of the counsel has to be secret until the very last second . Yeah. Is it i dont know. The next few days are going to be weird. The only reason youd be secret about it is there is something wrong with it. There is something theyre defensive about in this person. Why wouldnt they be proudly proclaiming, look who we got . Why do they need an outside counsel at all, though . You know what i mean . It is the senates responsibility to advise and consent. Why cant senators ask questions of witness especially because they dont want it to be an investigation, right . They dont want the fbi to look into it. They dont want any sort of outside independent Law Enforcement standard investigation of these matters. We can do it ourselves. By which we mean our contractor. What . If youre going to have somebody else come in and look at this stuff, how about having the fbi do a Background Investigation . I just its a rare moment of collective selfawareness of 11 men realizing theyre terrible at something. You may never see this again in washington, rachel. Rachel, i want to go to john klune, attorney for deborah ramirez, second accuser of Brett Kavanagh when she was a freshman at yale. She said they were at a Party Together both drinking, Brett Kavanagh very drunk and sexually assaulted her, as she tells it, and very, very aggressively. Brett kavanaghs freshman roommate says, i believe Debbie Ramirez. He also says Brett Kavanagh was incoherently drunk much of the time freshman year. Yeah. And now were in the situation where Debbie Ramirez, her lawyer telling me tonight what she wants is for the fbi to do an impartial investigation of this matter and she is willing to talk to the fbi under pain of criminal penalty if she lies to them. And she wants the fbi to talk to other witnesses who could testify either to corroborate or not corroborate what it is that she says happened. Thats what she wrants. The question of whether or not shes going to talk to the committee itself is all over the place. With the white house saying they want that and apparently these negotiations having started and then republicans essentially not following through on these discussions, them saying they want all her information, but not necessarily to talk to her. I mean, the question about whats going to happen to her story and whether it will be investigated at all is absolutely completely up in the air and theyve already scheduled a vote on his nomination for the end of the week. What i heard attorney john klune tell you about the way the republican staff of the Judiciary Committee was dealing with him as the representative of a potential witness to that committee, that is the most unprofessional conductive heard of by staff of either party on any committee. It is truly outrageous behavior. Well, also what mr. Klune told me not to get too into the weeds here. You worked in these hal owed halls. You know how this worked. We spoke with the committee staff, i clarified with him he meant the majority staff. The staffers who are reporting to the chairman Chuck Grassley. We set up a time to have a call where we would discuss how my client is going to convey her information to the committee, under what circumstances, how this is going to happen. And then they call in at the appointed time and its only democrats there. None of the republican senators, none of the republican staff. Thats just i mean, its just it may be unprofessional. I dont know how the professional standards work here. Its weird. Its way beyond unprofessional. When we get started here, we have lisa graves, former member of the judiciary staff on the democratic side who is going to dissect that one for us. All right. Thank you, rachel. Thanks, lawrence. Were going to go straight to the phones now Washington Post congressional reporter Sean Sullivan joining us by phone, part of the reporting team who is delivering the news tonight about this mystery lawyer whom the republicans on the senate Judiciary Committee are engaging kavanaghs accuser. And at this point the leading candidate is Rachel Mitchell. She is a prosecutor in arizona. Shes worked for the mayor cope a counsel tip Attorneys Office for 26 years and she is the Sex Crimes Bureau chief for the mayor cope a county Attorneys Office. So she is somebody who has a lot of experience in areas of Sexual Assault and sexual misconduct. And, sean, is she currently employed by the county . Yes. So shes going to have to leave a government payroll she cannot easily transfer from that government payroll to the senate payroll and she cannot be on both. Have you had any information about how theyre handling these payroll issues . You know, not yet. A lot of people are realizing i think when they look at these developments, this is a fairly, you know, unprecedented occasion right now. We dont usually see lawmakers bring somebody in from the outside, bring them onto their staff temporarily, have them ask these questions. Its typically the lawmakers themselves. Its usually a platform they embrace. Lawmakers typically want to use these Committee Hearings to talk about issues they care about and sometimes these moments go viral. But in this case, the republicans have taken a very, very different strategy and they dont want to call attention to themselves. They dont want to be the ones questioning dr. Ford in this hearing on thursday. Sean, youve got a republican senator from arizona on the Judiciary Committee, jeff flake. You also have new republican senator jon kyl, actually a former United States senator appointed recently to fill john mccains seat. Jon kyl had been working as basically Brett Kavanaghs guide through the Senate Confirmation process as a friend of all the republican senators. Any indication whether senator jon kyl or senator jeff flake were involved in the selection of an arizona local prosecutor to come 2000 miles to washington to do this job . You know, lawrence, there is no indication yet, but were still reporting this story right now. And, you know, the senator that you mentioned certainly have played a key role in this overall process. As you mention, senator kyle was basically kavanaghs guide, attended meetings with him on capitol hill with senators. And jeff flake of arizona is a key swing vote in this nomination process. He is seen a a republican who might vote yes, and he might vote no. And with the Republicans Holding on a 5149 advantage in the senate, every single vote is important, including flakes so thats something that leadership in the party is certainly looking at and aware of. Sean sullivan, thank you for your reporting. Thanks for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it. We are joined now by lisa graves. Shes the former chief counsel for nominations for the democrats in the senate Judiciary Committee and former Deputy Assistant attorney general. Joyce vance is with us, former federal prosecutor, Alabama School of law, msnbc contributor. Lisa, what is your reaction to this apparent selection of Rachel Mitchell to do the republicans job for them on the committee . Im a little bit astounded by the republicans willingness to waste our tax dollars to give cover to their cowardice. This really is unprecedented for the senate Judiciary Committee. I dont know of any time this has ever happened. It goes to the theatrics the government is trying to create. Theyre trying to create the appearance of process in fairness. In reality they are determined to deny it at every stage by not having a truly independent investigation, not having actual investigators investigate these matters at the fbi. But the audacity of schedule a vote on friday no matter what happens tomorrow and what happens on thursday in that hearing, along with senator mcconnells promise to have a vote next week on Brett Kavanagh no matter the severity of these allegations against him. And so this is just one more part of those optics, cynical optics that are being pressed by the republicans and the denial of actual process to dr. Ford and to other witnesses that are coming forward, you know, this week and as we speak. Joyce vance, so many things unprecedented about the hiring of Rachel Mitchell. The idea that they had to go 2000 miles from washington, which is one of the legal capitals of america, washington is one of the place that some of the best lawyers in america are local, like new york and other locations. The fact that shes coming out of a republican state, two republican senators there who might have had a hand in choosing her, one of them actually on the Judiciary Committee. We dont even know if shes in arizona as we speak. We dont know if shes going to spend her day tomorrow, wednesday, flying to washington and then conducting this work on National Television thursday morning or whether shes already in washington. But what we do know is shes going to be the person in that room who knows the least, the least about this case since her engagement with it has started sometime this week. You know, theyve brought her on board because of her skill sets, as a sex crimes prosecutor. And we can be pretty certain that what they wont want her to do is use her ability to crossexamine a defendant. Of course, this isnt a criminal trial, but Brett Kavanagh is in that role here. Shes been brought on board to use her skill set for gently evoking testimony from a victim. Obviously the republicans on the committee have got enormous sensitivity about the appearance that this will be another anita hillstyle level of testimony, and so her job will be to lead dr. Ford through her testimony, for them to elicit points that they can use to break holes into her credibility without doing it in a way that makes them look like a bunch of old guys sitting around like we saw the last time. And, lisa, the rules that chairman grassley has released tonight are obviously trying to make it as easy as possible on Brett Kavanagh, but also as easy as possible on Rachel Mitchell. He is making this his hope is clearly for the shortest confirmation hearing ever held, limiting the senators to five minutes each on each side. That means 50 minutes total on the democratic side, and no second chance. 55 minutes total on the republican side. And so reducing the number of minutes to something so tight makes this strange job that Rachel Mitchell has a lot easier. Well, it does. And what it really does is manifestly deny justice in this case. Its a fiat that is designed to thwart the search for truth. It is designed to limit the ability of dr. Ford to express her opinion, to answer questions and followup questions by members about her story. Its contemptuouos. The phrase that comes to mind, hell has no fury like a woman scorned. In this instance its women across america who are being scorned. Scorn senator obama to treated with contempt, to be treated as if you dont matter. Having just a few minutes to really tell your story on an issue of this magnitude about who is going to be on our court, what the American People may want in terms of the qualities of a judicial nominee versus the right wing press to get this guy on the bench in order to advance the sort of agenda that the koches and others have funded is extraordinary. And so in some ways this is just merely a pretense of process. Its really designed to give the koches and the big funders who are backing him through these operations on the outside what they want on the court which is a sure vote no matter what. Even if it comes from someone who has been accused of attempted rape. Lisa, one more quick question before we go to break. I worked on two senate committees. No matter how partisan they were, the staff was always bipartisan, always working in a cooperative way behind the scenes, so i am shocked tonight by john klunes with rachel maddow. He represents Debbie Ramirez, the second accuser of Brett Kavanagh and the way the republican staff. And the republicans refusing to deal with him pretending to deal with i am had. Im stunned by it. It seems unprofessional. Unfortunately the tone is set at the top by senator grassley and by senator mcconnell. And so, you know, we have certainly had good relationships on a professional level with staff on the other side because we are there, when i was there all the time trying to get our jobs done. But in this case you have people who are exceedingly partisan. You had the chief counsel for senator grassley conduct his own solo interview of the nominee and then pronounce him cleared basically. And so i think all processes are broken down. Theyre not following the rules, they dont care about the rules and theyre doing so in order to install someone on the court with the job of following the rules, someone who actually, i think, has not been honest about the facts or the law in Brett Kavanagh. So its all coming together in one pattern. And Chuck Grassley in breaking news item has just officially taken Rachel Mitchell out of the shadows and admitted that Chuck Grassley and the United States senate have hired Rachel Mitchell they are putting her on the senate payroll for what might only be two days or three days, who knows, but just for basically 55 minutes of work in that committee, asking the questions that the republican men of that committee are afraid to ask. Were going to take a break here. Lisa graves, joyce vance, thanks for starting us off tonight. And when we come back, i will explain to you why Chuck Grassley and Mitch Mcconnell and donald trump are running scared on the kavanagh nomination. Their strategy has not been working. Its been getting worse for Brett Kavanagh every day. So they changed their strategy in the last couple of days, and this one is in serious trouble because Chuck Grassley and mcconnell are certainly behaving as if they do not yet have the votes. Well be right back. You shouldnt be rushed into booking a hotel. With expedias addon advantage, booking a flight unlocks discounts on select hotels until the day you leave for your trip. Addon advantage. Only when you book with expedia. Start with 100 cleancheese . Ingredients. Like vermont white cheddar. Then. Add bacon, bbq chicken, or baja blend. Catering and delivery now available. Test test test our breaking news at this hour is that Chuck Grassley has confirmed that chairman the senate Judiciary Committee, that Rachel Mitchell, the mayor cope a county attorney who specializes in prosecuting sex crimes will ask the questions for republicans during the hearing on thursday in which Brett Kavanagh will appear to defend himself against a charge of Sexual Assault which dr. Christine blasey ford will make to the committee in her testimony. Dr. Ford will testify first. Brett kavanagh will testify second. Republican senators are afraid of asking a single question. And so they are flying in a woman prosecutor from 2000 miles away in arizona to do that job for them tonight. Her name is Rachel Mitchell. That was a secret being held by republicans all day for reasons we cannot fathom. But now Chuck Grassley has confirmed that is the person who the republican men of the senate Judiciary Committee have asked to do their job for them because they know they cant. And theyre running scared, all of them are. The republicans are running scared now on the kavanagh nomination tonight. How scared are they . Consider this. Republican senator jon kyl was actually working, as i said before, as o