Rachel Maddow takes a look at the days top political news stories. Their way to keep trump out of the trial. Abc news reports that prosecutors have been coaching their witnesses not to mention trumps name or even that manafort lives in trump tower. The judge in the case has warned that bringing up manaforts ties to trump could unduly influence jurors. There is at least one thing about this trial that is important to the relationship between Paul Manafort and donald trump. The first witness today was tad devine, chief strategist for Bernie Sanders an president ial campaign who worked with manafort on political campaigns in ukraine. The prosecution called him as their first witness to have him describe how much work manafort was doing in ukraine and how lucrative it was. Before we came on the air, we got a rush version of the transcript from todays hearing. Im not going to be able to act out a whole conversation but heres one little bit of the prosecutors Opening Statement worth hear. This was the prosecutor today, up until 2014, Paul Manafort was flush with cash and hiding a lot of it from the irs, but in
from manaforts defense where they brought up gates and they said look, its not really all about witnesses. Theres a lot of paper here. Youll see it in manaforts own happened and his own emails. The prosecutors said we have the burden of proof here and were happy to bear it, which i took to mean they think theres ample proof that manaforts guilty. Yeah, Arm Chair Lawyering is very dangerous but one thing that Arm Chair Lawyers like myself heard when the indictments were first unsealed was that this was a paper case that all the evidence was in the charging documents. Was there a sense in the courtroom today that this was an airtight case or was there the anticipation that this could go anywhere . I think a lot of observers still there its a pretty strong case with gates testimony you get not only the financial machinations surrounding the offshore Bank Accounts but the questions of bank fraud that arose in some part during the Trump Campaign, these applications for large loans
that went from i think the middle of 2016 through early 2017. Rick gates allegedly had direct involvement in that the in doctor some of the paperwork involved. So he will be an important witness on at least some of the charges but most people i think watching believe the defense is trying to pitch to maybe get one or two kind of Holdout Jurors who will buy the fact that rick gates engineered this fraud and that somehow manafort was just along for the wide even though he was the one at the top of The Food Chain here, and he was the one really making the big bucks. Hes the one with the history of Doing Business in this part of the world. Take us through Jury Selection. I read in your note or some other reporting that was the most animated you all au saw Paul Manafort. The yeah, manafort seemed subdued for a long time in a lot of these hearings both in d. C. And virginia. He obviously ended up being jailed for the last month or month and a half or so which was something that his lawyers will tried to avoid. That seemed to dampen his
emotions somewhat. Today he was very involved during Jury Selection when they were trying to figure out which jurors to strike, which jurors who keep. He was flipping flu pads and notes at the defense table. He was chatting with several of his lawyers rather animatedly and seemed to be making notes sort of maybe striking people out or having lengthy discussions with his counsel about which of these jurors might be most advantageous to him. Ultimately they ended up with six men and six women on this jury who will decide his fate at least in this first trial. I read this and i wonder this if i read this correctly. He was wearing a suit today. Weve seen other photos where hes wearing a jumpsuit. The jurors will not be informed or see any images of him wearing that jumpsuit. Why would that be . They typically would not. Usually the Prison Jumpsuits are only used for arraignments and pretrial hearings. Whenever someone is exposed to
the jury, theyre usually brought flu street clothes, whether youre talking about a white collar case or violent kram. Theyre not told whether the defendant is in custody or free on bay. Its considered that would be presently additional if you see somebody brought into the courtroom in shackles a lot of jurors may think this person is dangerous or Presump Tubally guilty. So courts and judges are usually pretty careful that those sorts of things taking off the handcuffs that kind off stuff takes place outside the courtroom where the jurors cant catch a glimpse of it. No ostrich cope coat, right . No, it seemed like a pretty standard business suit. Probably more expensive than my suit. I doubt its one of the 10,000 or 15,000 numbers he was buying in new york. Josh gerstein, senior White House Reporter for politico and a brandnew msnbc contributor. Were lucky to have you. Joining us former u. S. Attorney joyce vance. Thank you for being with me, joyce. Take me through what stuck out for you. Im struck by some of what josh was talking about, that the entire manafort defense is blame that guy, my deputy. That doesnt seem like a solid legal strategy to me. Just from the evidence that weve seen publicly it looks like the government has a very good case here. As you noted, its a paper case. That means the government will largely rely on paperwork, many pieces of paper that manafort has either touched or signed to prove its case. And theyll jazz it up a little bit. Theyll have rick gates and perhaps others to narrate the case which the jury will undoubtedly find a little bit more interesting than just looking at paper. But still, with a case that have strength, you had to wonder why manafort was holding out, why he wasnt pleading guilty. And so i thought we might see a little bit of a twist today when we got a little bit of an
intimation of what his defense would be during Opening Statements. But instead, we got the my underling did it defense which is really in many ways something of a yawner, something that juries occasionally will show interest in and occasionally even a jury will hang over that, but it doesnt seem like a Strong Defense here. I was surprised that we didnt see a better opener. Are you able to answer the question you just put before us, why is manafort holding out . There are a couple of reasons, but frankly, we all speculate is theres someone that manafort fears more than he fears mueller. And spending the rest of his life in jail. Thats one possibility. Does he think that trump will pardon him and make all of this go away . I suppose thats a possibility. And then theres a third possibility which is that some defendants like to see how the evidence comes in at trial and bank on being able to cut a late deal with prosecutors if they
believe the evidence isnt coming in favorably to them. So i wouldnt say its impossible that we wont see a late plea here, but manafort doesnt look like someone who is headed that direction. And i understand that this trial is about bang fraud, tax fraurksd things other than Paul Manaforts time and tenure as chairman of the Trump Campaign. Clearly, this trial is on the president s mind. This cohen flirting with prosecutors in the Southern District, just based on the president s new refrain on collusion, he pivoted today. Maybe its a coincidence its the same day the Manafort Trial started. Flowinger is he saying there was no collusion. Its collusion isnt a crime. How does it fit into the broader puzzle about russian influence over the Trump Campaign . This case i think is the preample to russian collusion. This is setting the scene for manaforts past dealings and past crimes. Some of it may well leak into his time with trump. But it will clearly set the stage for i think a later section of this story, and weve seen mueller stage other cases that way. First indicting russians who were involved in social media manipulation. Then indicting russians who were involved in hacking. And in both of those cases, we see the possibility that there may be a americans who were involved. Now were learning a little bit more about muellers history with russianbacked dictator in ukraine. And it seems that this too is headed in that same direction. And could you take this case, i mean, would it be a Building Block if youre trying to put together some broader picture or some broader conspiracy case . Because the information coming out of Michael Cohens camp is putting donald trump as someone who may have had knowledge of that Trump Tower Meeting, paul plfrt just happens to be one of the other people in that Trump Tower Meeting. There are a lot of connections and our colleague jeremy bash
said i think in September Of 2017 on this network if you were looking for a russian plant, if you were looking for agent to plant on the Trump Campaign, Paul Manafort would be your guy. Theres really no such thing as coincidence in law enforcement. Its remarkable that we have Paul Manafort who is millions of dollars in debt to the Russian Oligarch oleg deripaska, suddenly he shows up despite ta debt and volunteers to work for free on the Trump Campaign. And then during his tenure, he offers to brief Deripaska On Whats Going on. This is a remarkable string of coincidences and i think jeremys analysis from pretty far out will be accurate at the end of the day. So we could see this case come together certainly the Special Counsel team hopes that manafort will become available to them as a witness. Im sure that they would prefer to have him decide to cooperate with them. But at the end of the day, even
if he doesnt cooperate, once this trial concludes, they will likely be able to compel his testimony and although its always better to have someone testifying as the result of cooperation as as opposed to a compulsion order, manafort can likely shed a lot of light on many of these issues. Joyce vance, former u. S. Attorney from the Northern District of alabama, were always grateful to have you especially on nights like tonight. President trump and his personal attorney Rudy Giuliani keep changing their minds what the president will be asked about should he sit down with mueller for an interview. New news about what prosecutors are looking into tonight. Thats next. Cars, two motorcycles, a boat, and an r. V. I would not want to pay that insurance bill. [ ding ] oh, i have progressive, so i just bundled everything with my Home Insurance. Saved me a ton of money. Love you, gary you dont have to buzz in. Its not a question, gary. On march 1, 1810 [ ding ] frederic chopin. Collapsing in 226 [ ding ] the colossus of rhodes. [ sighs ] Louise Dustmann [ ding ] brahms lullaby, or wiegenlied. When will it end . [ ding ] not today, ron. Plus, it freshens breath. Biotene. Immediate and long lasting dry mouth symptom relief. Friendly oligarch. Muellers prosecutors have described manaforts Ukrainian Business Participant as having active ties to russian intelligence services. A memo written by Rod Rosenstein last summer laid out muellers authority to the investigate whether Paul Manafort specifically committed a crime or crimes by colluding with russian government officials. We also know muellers team has questions for the president on this very subject. Mueller wants to ask the president what knowledge did you have of any outreach by your Campaign Including by Paul Manafort to russia about potential assistance to the campaign. The president s lawyers said they were willing to let the president answer questions on possible collusion but not on Obstruction Of Justice. But now with Michael Cohen reportedly alleging the president knew about the Trump Tower Meeting in advance, democrats say the president may be on the hook for both. There is credible evidence
that the president of the United States has committed Obstruction Of Justice and possibly a spircy to undermine our election. The president said there was no collusion and even if there was collusion isnt a crime. They are now unwilling to answer questions on that topic either. You said maybe you would let him answer a few limited questions on collusion. I dont want to give them a false impression. Given some of the revelations of the last three our four weeks, weve been driven further away from the idea of answering any questions from them. They dont think they have a legitimate investigationings. Chuck rosenburg, senior fbi official and jeremy bash, former Chief Of Staff at the cia and the Department Of Defense during the obama administration. Thank you both for being here tonight. You have both banned the word collusion from any broadcast on which we all appear together. Talk about how the real sort of
pot at the end of the ray bow for an investigation is a conspiracy. Chuck, you first. Yeah, sure. I guess collusion just irks me because its not. Youre not easily iraqed. I dont tend irk easily. Collusion means agreeing with somebody else to do something. Thats what a conspiracy is. Theres synonyms. The fact that collusion doesnt appear in the Criminal Code as mr. Giuliani asserts is Utter Nonsense because conspiracy does. What the mueller team is investigating is whether folks in the United States conspired with the russians to interfere in our election. Call it what you want. When they finally charge it, it will be charged as conspiracy. The notion that collusion isnt a crime is to mislead people. For the court of Public Opinion but not for a court of law. I just want to follow up with
you. You said when had he finally charge it. Are you seeing enough pieces come to light in just what is public facing in this investigation that you believe there will be enough to charge someone with a conspiracy to coordinate or receive assist, from a hostile foreign power . Its an educated guess. I hope its a well educated guess. I hope its a well changed guess, nicole. Yes, i am. There are bits and pieces in the Public Record that suggest that it wasnt just russians. The timing of the hack into the dnc computers, all of that is tied to russian activity that mr. Mueller recently charged when he brought a case against the russian Intelligence Officers. So i think there is enough. I think there are other calculations that are really important here like, for instance, whether mr. Mueller believes he has the authority to charge a sitting president. Theres some debate on that point. The Department Of Justice weighed in on it in the past. And has opined that you cannot. So theres some Unanswered Questions but i think the pieces are there. Jeremy bash, i have a well attuned ear to Everything Chuck says and i have never heard him say that before. I want to ask you the same question. Do you see enough public facing evidence at this point to make another educated guess for us there is enough evidence now to charge someone with conspiracy to coordinate with a hostile foreign power . I dont think we know all the facts yet. I think the Mueller Investigation has a ways to go to eliminated those facts. If you want to understand the way bob mueller thinks about conspiracy, all you have to do is take your dog eared and underlined copy of the July 13th Indictment of 12 russian Intelligence Officers on 11 counts because in there bob mueller and his team lay out with spes fis sit exactly what conspiracy looks like. If people want to use the Google Machine to research it, its 18usc371. Its Conspiracy To Defraud the United States. A couple of interesting things about that statute. First of all, it states that if two or more people agree to do something to commit an offense against the United States, and one of those people actually goes ahead and does it, then both people are guilty of conspiracy and shall not be imprisoned more than five years. Its a class e felony. So the important part is that if there were people inside trump tower at the Trump Tower Meeting or inside