Weve had the loss of one life, bloodshed inside the u. S. Capitol. When we saw the collection of police and fire near the trump hotel on pennsylvania avenue. Its been confirmed it was a stabbing of an adult male. Thats all we know. Thats what they were responding to. Where profiles in courage, cathy mcmorrisrodgers said shes no longer going to object to the certification of the Electoral College and shes going to admit to the peaceful transfer of power and the fact that joe biden was elected president. Lets bring in David Ignatius, veteran journalist, author, columnist, editor at the washington post. Your name was already invoeblgd once during our coverage today. Im curious having just heard from frank figluzzi, a recitation of the separatist groups weve known and loved around the world, im tempted to ask you where this ranks in stories youve covered in this country but why stop there. Stories youve covered in foreign capitols, foreign governments. Brian, this looks like an insurgency. You look at the faces, rage, lawlessness, attempt to strike at symbols of power. The way in which the internet has been used as a source of recruitment. There are some eerie parallels. I want to underline something frank said a few moments ago. People who are planning for the Law Enforcement response, planning the Police Presence, planning the fbi roll knew that the capitol was a target. They expected there would be a march down pennsylvania avenue from the ellipse after the initial gathering in the morning and they assumed that the Capitol Police would be able to expand their perimeter and protect the capitol. Its not like they didnt see this coming. They did. One of the ridless is just on a basic tactical level, why werent there more compaapitol police present . How did they allow this breach to happen . One other point, the officials that ive been talking to over the last several weeks who, again, saw this crisis coming on january 6th have been concerned about the danger donald trump would try to draw the u. S. Military into protecting his presidency, the challenge of the election results. Some new invocation of the insurrection act on his behalf to advance his cause. They were determined to keep the military out of any effort to challenge the election and in that sense i think we can be glad even though the response looked awfully timid that u. S. Military troops were not involved. The National Guard was not visibly present during the difficult moments. Those images, an american tiananmen is what the insurgents wanted. They department get that. They didnt get that moment of martyrdom that i think they were seeking. I think thats part of what lies behind a response that puzzles a lot of us. Why wasnt it more forceful . People did not want to mill tar rise this. David, where do you think mike pence is . Who do you think hes talking to . Who do you hope hes talking to . Same is the leadership, gang of four, schumer, mcconnell, their power flipped in the midst of this, pelosi and mccarthy. Where are they all . What do you reckon theyre talking about . Well, i think they must feel a deep sense of embarrassment theyve enabled trump and that they can see now the cost. These images today i think have done more to undermine the future of the trump insurge against against si if anything. People lucks our rating in Speaker Pelosis office like they own it or cavorting in the senate chamber. People are disgusted by that. I think if youre Speaker Pelosi, you probably as embarrassing and upsetting as this is, you feel this moment has blown itself up in some ways. Mcconnell made clear this morning before the assault on the capitol that he couldnt abide trumps lawlessness, trumps defiance of the election result. Hed jump ship visibly and publicly. So i think the conversation, i cant guess what pence is thinking, but i think the conversation among the senators is we need to be careful. This is a Movement People are going to look at and say, that doesnt look like something i want to be part of. Sorry for the delay there. This is Rachel Maddow jumping in from the other side of the studio there in new york, mr. Ignatius. Thank you very much for joining us. Im struck by these two really rich loads of reporting that you have had recently, one which you were just describing this desire, concern among upper reaches of the military that the president not be allowed to effectively invoke military force to protect his presidency and seeing today there being no visible use of the military in a way that might have created a martyrdom moment for the protestors. On the other hand, youve had a rich load of reporting about the preparations for todays events. You reported yesterday, planning for the process has been coordinated by an inner agency team, acting secretary, secretary of Homeland Security, backed by the chairman of the joint chiefs and from your reporting i felt very comforted that there was a lot more planning than we had expected. As you reported, that they tried to storm the capitol they would be arrested. I do feel like theres a big difference between having tanks in the streets and a tianamen moment of martyrdom and being able to run through the capitol. Whatever planning happened, they were under prepared for the amount of violence brought to bear against the building. I think you put it exactly right, rachel. I think they were right not to want to mill tarrize this. They thought they had adequate forces. They thought the 6,000, 8,000 d. C. Police plus fbi, plus s. W. A. T. Teams, Law Enforcement people from various federal agencies that they were gathering would be sufficient. They put a lot of reliance on the Capitol Police. I think as we look back at what happened that was misplaced. I do think youre right. They were under prepared. They were sensible in not wanting us to look like a military confrontation, but the coordination, the ability to move as quickly as the protesters protesters, the insurgents did was lacking. I think thats going to be at the center of the examination that should take place about what happened. But, again, i think the importance of the fact that this movement, this insurgency has undermined its cause with actions that seem to repel even the most passionate critics of bidens election, people part of the challenge of the certification of the Electoral College vote, i think thats really important. Thats a big part of what happened today is that this movement, you know, essentially popped its own balloon. In terms of the preparations you were able to report on and the thinking of the people involved to brace for this moment which i think did go off the rails in a way that wasnt anticipated, should we expect that people who broke into the capitol and broke those windows and carried firearms into the district and did all these other committed all these other federal crimes that weve seen committed today on tape and in film, should we expect theyll be prosecuted . Is that a policy decision for the incoming Justice Department . Is that something u. S. Attorneys will be allowed to pursue . Well, its the right question. Obviously its a question for the new administration, but i would think that Law Enforcement, the fbi, the Capitol Police itself are just deeply embarrassed and enraged at what was done today and they will want to be at the front of those wanting a prosecution of the people who vandalized evaded and vandalized the capitol. I think theres going to be a movement from inside from federal Law Enforcement itself demanding this. Again, as people im talking to my sources tonight before coming on the air. What i heard was we think the right force was in place but we cant answer the question why it didnt move more quickly and decisively in the key moments before the capitol was seized. David ignatius, washington post. A Foreign Affairs columnist and so much more. Its an honor to have you here. Thank you. Thanks, rachel. I would mention as i handed it back over to my friend Nicole Wallace here that weve been wondering sort of behind the scenes why some of the president s more inflammatory and inciting tweets have been put out. Twitter put out a statement that they required that and are threatening to shut down the president s twitter account for inciting violence. Thats where we are. Back over to you. Thank you, rachel. Truly remarkable to listen to David Ignatius talk about the u. S. Capitol today. We turn to our colleague Vaughn Hilliard whos on the scene. What are you seeing and where are you . Reporter nicole, i want people to see the perimeter that has been set up as Congress Prepares to enter into the joint session. This is for folks who have been to washington, d. C. , youll know exactly where i am. This is constitution avenue. Its run straight down towards the white house. The Capitol Grounds here right here on our left here, you can see where the police line has been set up. Barricades are set up here. Paul rigney is our great photographer. Youve been seeing the Senate Office buildings. Thats the russell Senate Office buildings. Senators, there are three different Senate Office buildings and each senator has an office in one of those buildings. The same goes for members of the house. Over on the house side three different house buildings. Thats where youve seen a lot of members essentially retreat back to their offices back just down the road here. As you can see it by the police line here, those offices are included in this perimeter. Police telling us there is nothing explosive, no dangerous devices left on site over the course of the last 90 minutes as those insurgents were pushed back here. You can see that is independence avenue on the other side where the National Mall ultimately meets up with the capitol. You can see the police line of cars coming down ipd pen dense avenue and you can see before in the foreground of those police cars there are still probably 1,000 individuals that are still gathered but obviously a good several hundred yards away. It is 7 p. M. Out here in washington, d. C. , and if i could, nicole, just going to let it go silent for about ten seconds because union station, ten blocks down the road where amtrak runs through, where the metro runs through. Constitution avenue, its never quiet. Right now what you hear are sirens. What you see are sirens. I think that clock is telling us its 7 p. M. Nicole, a couple seconds here to take this in. Please. Reporter this is the nations capitol washington d. C. , january 6th, 2021. Its a date that will forever be on any google search. Senator josh hawley, i want to read you something that has come through from his hometown newspaper. No one other than President Donald Trump himself is responsible for wednesdays coup attempt than one joshua david hawley. The 41yearold senator who put out a fundraising appeal as the siege was underway. I want to ask you, vaughn, what youre hearing from either elected senators or house members or their staff members. Is there any shame . Is there any, i dont know, confessional tone . No one had any chance to react to senator mcdonnells brutal indictment of Donald Trumps lies but it was prescient. Im wondering what youre hearing from your sources on capitol hill. Reporter inside you had that shutdown situation. Ive heard from officials. They were frustrated. They knew it would be a long night because of the republican objections. What i am waiting to hear more so is the voices from mike pences operation, from ted cruzs operation. I first covered ted cruzs president ial campaign from 2015 and 2016 when he called President Trump a pathological liar. He has a hard time loses. He throws a trumpertantrum. I remember. He got booed off that Convention Stage in 2016 because he learned the price. In order to succeed in this party you have to stand in line with donald trump. Ted cruz did that. I covered mike pences campaign. There was a staff that supported him as he was complicit with the president s actions over the campaign and over the several years. Several staffers have left the white house. They have left Vice President pences side. Alyssa farrah, a Communications Director for the white house now calling on President Trump to speak out at the same time it took january 6th, 2021, for those actions. You work in politics. For merge to understand, a lot of us in journalism, we get to know the people in the campaigns, we get to know the principles. We get to know ted cruz and mike pence a lilt bit more as human beings. When you watch the decisions know over five years culminate to this moment, it will be difficult to have conversations to have with those people. Not only tomorrow but into the weeks and months ahead. Many are young individuals with their careers ahead. All of us as a country are watching what washington, d. C. , became here today and i think those are conversations that you, myself, individuals that work in politics and journalism are going to have to confront. Im sure if anyone hears the confessional accounts it will be folks like yourself. Vaughn hilliard, live in washington, d. C. Coming back to you. I want to bring in Claire Mccaskill on the same question i posed to my colleague vaughn. Its breathtaking. The Kansas City Star laying it out there. This is what they write about senator josh hawley. Quote, no one other than President Donald Trump himself is more responsible about wednesdays coup attempt than joshua david hawley, 41yearold junior senator who put out a fundraising appeal while the siege was underway. Its stunning to read those words in a newspaper, in your newspaper. Yeah. This has been weird for me. I am oldfashioned and i was taught when you lose an election, you take the high road and you dont spend the next years of your life pointing out the flaws of your opponent who defeated you. I have tried, which is hard for me as you know, with some discipline to avoid direct criticism of josh hawley, but the moment is coming. By the way, that concept appears quaint at this point in time that we would try to have some kind of good manners about political losses in light of what josh hawley is engaged in. He has taken what he knows is a political loss for the president , that he lost the election. Josh hawley is a very smart guy. Josh hawley is stanford, yale law, clerked for chief Justice Roberts, has not said one word by the way defending Justice Roberts when lin wood called him a child molester. He knows better. He knows better. It is such a craven political move. Is he calculating this is a guy who has more ambition than common sense. He barely got elected as attorney general. Then he was running for the United States senate. He barely gets elected to the United States senate and hes running for president. In the process of him trying to be hyper ambitious, he has compromised not just what i think is integrity that you should have if you are an elected Office Holder but the National Security. Im going to reject the idea that hes smart because he went to fancy schools. Were going to have to agree to disagree. Maybe intellectually smart. Hes not smart. This is him with the fist raised to the men and women who committed crimes in insurrection and sedition. Let me tell you what he put in motion. He has, quote, blood on his hands, end quote. What he put in motion and i know how the republicans roll is a race to the bottom when he came out and said he was going to join the republicans in the house. He didnt have the power to object to the counting of the certified electoral votes. He put in motion 11 other craven senators from the Republican Party joining him, and to see what happened today as this fully sponsored republican riot. This wasnt some fringy group. They walked directly from Donald Trumps rally down the same street to the u. S. Capitol including one josh hawley. How smart can he be . Yeah. Smarts probably not the right word. Because what hes done is not very smart politically or any other way, but he doesnt have an excuse that he doesnt have the intellectual capacity to understand how craven his actions are. He was down there trying to campaign with those people this afterno afternoon. He you know, i said sarcastically on twitter im surprised he wasnt in the senate on the senate floor shaking hands with them as they were going through his colleagues desks. He was the one that broke i had had a number of republican senators say to me that the other 12 to 13 probably never would have gone there if hawley hadnt done what he did. So i do think this is on josh hawley and say even if he didnt want me there. Brett asked him if he would look his supporters in the eye and tell them that on january 20th joe biden will be americas president. He couldnt say that and he wouldnt say that. Do you have any predictions about whether this insurgent attack on the United States capitol and loss of control in the senate which by the way is an underreported banner headline of the day. Lets put josh hawley and his b. S. Aside for a second. Democrats control the senate, claire. I know. Youve got me on the roller coaster. They do control the United States senate. They control what people are going to vote on on the floor of the s