Counts. Another one for obstruction of justice. Bob mcdonnell becomes the first governor or former governor in the history of virginia to be convicted of a crime and his wife becomes the first former first lady to suffer the same fate. Late they are morning we talk about whether the verdict could inspire similar prosecutions elsewhere. And the name Chris Christie comes to mind wooe. Well get into it later with a former prosecutor. For now we dig deep near why and how the jury reached the verdict that it reached. Last night one of the mcdonnell jurors, kathleen carmody. Told rach Rachel Maddow what they thought of the defense, that they couldnt conspire because the marriage was in bad shape. I did not doubt there was strain in the marriage and stress. And that mrs. Mcdonnell was having a difficult time adjusting as first lady of virginia. However, they remained under the same roof during all this time up until the time of the trial. Were under the same roof. They vacationed together. We saw evidence of text messages, phone messages, it just i dont doubt that there was some strain. But it did not to me come across as being as broken as it was portrayed. And the importance of them communicating throughout this time, and having contact, living under the same roof and everything, is that it meant legally that they could have could have conspired or communicated about these criminal acts . There certainly could have been opportunity. The mcdonnell juror also said it wouldnt have made a difference to her if Maureen Mcdonnell had taken the stand to testify in her own defense. I dont think it would have swayed me one way or the other. Maybe it would have been certainly of interest to hear her perspective. But it certainly for me would not have swayed me one way or the other. There was sufficient testimony and evidence provided already. All right. Here to discuss this and all the other big stories today, we have norm mornstein from the American Enterprise institute and msnbc analyst karen finney. The mcdonnell verdict, lets start with that. I was surprised by this. I thought the prosecution established, i thought the news media established pretty well the mcdonnells were kind of greedy here. It took a lot of things. 200 make that connection, especially when you look at what the ethics laws are in virginia, they dont have many ethics laws in virginia to make the connection and say that he took this, the watch or the car or the cash or whatever and turned around and did x for johnny loomis, this businessman, i wasnt sure they could make the case. I was surprised by the verdict. It seemed like they were trying to be a little too cute by half, right. You have this rolodex, you have this fancy car. You happen to have a check to help out with your daughters wedding and you happen to have a reception in your house, which happens to be the Governors Mansion in support of a diet product that the main ingredient is tobacco. I mean penicillin . Theres something about that that just doesnt i think to be honest that to me smells just of something going on there. And clearly they made the argument. I saw those, in virginia, it is legal to, for a governor for an elected official, basically to take anything. Thats the weird thing here. So you could take the rolex. It certainly smells bad, looks bad. In virginia, it is legal to basically string along somebody like Johnny Williams. And maybe hint that were going to make this the official state Nutritional Supplement or whatever. Thats why i was a little bit struck. I think weve gotten cynical about politics. When we see these kind of things, we kind of thing that they, that they dont quite pass the smell test. But it doesnt really seem like they, that they quite cross that line. And the prosecution actually said, no, we, there really was a quid pro quo going on here. Think that should be the concern for other politicians, that if, if that precedent has been set, that there might be some other cute kind of relationships that other prosecutors in other states might start looking at. It was a faulty defense in a lot of ways. And you know, remember that at an early stage, mcdonnell was offered conviction on one felony count and his wife exonerated. And turned it down. And im sure his defense lawyers told him, we got this nailed. But what they did was to focus almost entirely on the dysfunction in the family, they hung the wife out to dry and i think the jury found that really distasteful. That seems a risky move. And when youre suggesting that the husband, the noble husband who is doing his gubernatorial duties was clueless about all of these things but you know, theyre in deep financial trouble and she gives him a rolex watch and he doesnt say how the hell can we afford a rolex watch . Or he dets into tgets into the has pictures smiling driving it around, thats really hard. Theres an email with him and Johnny Williams saying basically hey, we need a loan for 10 grand or 20 grand, done. They clearly expect something, you know. It was like the new twinkie defense, right . Theres no way we could conspire because we hate each other. Were living in the same house, but we hate each other. We dont talk to each other. Im sure as the juror pointed out, there was some strain in the marriage, thats probably realistic. But like you say, the fact that that was the core basis for their case, that they couldnt conspire because theyre not getting along . I mean thats a little but this is interesting, too, because you know, we now are into about two or three decades of marriages that are also political partnerships. And bill and Hillary Clinton is maybe the most obvious example. When you have that kind of a situation, you could have, there might be a lot of strain in the marriage. There was a lot of strain in the clinton marriage obviously when they were in the white house. But that doesnt mean that there cant be still a political relationship that they may be able to engage in and work in things. Not any more, though. Thats the other part of this, its so shocking, you can just think back two years ago, three years ago, it was Bob Mcdonnell, the short list of the Vice President ial prospect. This is going to be a swing state, a potential president ial candidate some day. The romney vetting team they need some retroactive bonuses. Even if they didnt mean it, they could claim credit for it. Im wondering about the c conjugal visits in prison. We move to texas and the race for governor. It will be a big story this weekend. In an excerpt of her memoir out on wednesday, Texas Democrat wendy davis reveals she terminated a pregnant 18 years ago for medical reasons, it came two years after another necessarily medical abortion that she previously disclosed. She shot to fame after her 13hour filibuster in an effort to defeat abortion restriction legislation she writes she was already in her second trimester, she and her thenhusband, named their expected daughter when they learned the fetus had a serious brain abnormality. Doctors said her daughter could be in a permanent vegetative state. Davis writes quote, an indescribable blackness followed. It was a deep, dark despair and grief. A heavy wave that crushed me. It made me wonder if i would ever surface. When i finally did come through it, eye emerged a different person, changed, forever changed. This will cause a big stir. Obviously a very personal revelation on her part. Wendy davis, the politics of abortion sort of central to the rise of wendy davis in texas. Thats true. Although i think the way she talked about this, and you know, i serve on the board of naral, pro choice america. For women who have to undergo this kind of procedure where as she described it, they had named the child, right and she thanks the child in the, you could say fetus or child. But point being this was clearly a very hard decision. She goes to Great Lengths to describe how torturous a decision that is and i think theres two things. Number one, i think thats probably helpful for women who find themselves in the same situation and the womens vote in texas is very important. But also from a political standpoint, i think its wise, because shes now defined the nature of the story. And i think it makes it that much harder for greg abbott or anyone else to try to cast her as some sort of evil person for having done this. In a state like texas. Conservative state, republican state, and there certainly are plenty of pro choice people, and plenty of pro life people as well. To tell a story like this, that is as karen said, sort of a wrenching personal story. This is not a casual abortion or anything like that. This is somebody who is agonizing over it and yet felt the necessity to go through with it i wonder if in a state like texas, there are people who consider themselves more on the pro life side and look at that and maybe think about it a little differently. She may get a certain amount of sympathy in terms of the dynamics of that decision. But politically im not sure if it changes things one way or the other. Because first of all, i dont think its not something that greg abbott is going to make a political, a political attack or even you know, even talk about. Hell say its a personal thing and kind of move on. I think people who are supporting wendy davis because shes pro choice, theyre going to stay with her. I dont think, people who are pro life, theyll sympathize with her. But i dont think, its not going to gain her extra votes. The difference is women. Moderate women voters, for a lot of women. How she describes what happened, thats how women think about it. Its not so cutanddry as im for it or against it. Its more a sense of, i dont know if i should be the person or the government should be the person to tell wendy davis what to do in that situation. Its so complicated for women. I do think given a lot of the previous things that greg abbott has said and sort of his position, i think from a political standpoint, it is something i think will resonate with moderate women, and again, theres been so much anger among women and i think well see if its a motivating factor. If all of the hobby lobbies and all the things that have happened in terms of taking away womens rights, this is the kind of thing that i think actually could make some women voters think differently about it. This is texas this is a state that democrats keep saying were going to win in 2024, 2028. How do you look at texas right now . Its still a very uphill battle for democrats. Some of the polls show that wendy davis was not doing as well as she should be doing with women and with younger voters. And i think this may be an attempt at least to bring some of them back into the fold. Thats not going to be enough for her, its going to take something more. And it appears at least in this texas, that greg abbott, a pretty extreme guy, we have all of these stories going back to rick perrys wrongful death, people executed where we now know they were innocent. And not a seconds thought by the governor, we look at the processes that they use to examine cases of people on death row. And it was mostly come on, lets just push this through and make it happen. Something that in another state would be shocking. When rick perry was running for president in 2012, and when they asked him about do you have any doubt, no, and the audience erupted in cheers at the republican debate. That goes beyond the borders. There are reports this morning the comedienne joan rivers, the person who pioneered red carpet coverage of award shows will have an actual red carpet at her funeral in new york city, it will be held tomorrow. Not saying they are credible reports, but it does seem fitting for the comedian who coined the phrase who are you wearing . Well talk to Michael Musto about the person he knew. A body at rest tends to stay at rest. While a body in motion tends to stay in motion. Staying active can ease arthritis symptoms but if you have arthritis, this can be difficult. Prescription celebrex can help relieve arthritis pain, so your body can stay in motion. 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This is the other, a true political bombshell, the Biggest Development all year in the battle for control of the u. S. Senate, it hit the state of kansas this past wednesday afternoon when the democratic nominee for senate there, chad taylor, submitted a letter to the secretary of state, withdrawing from the race. And that left independent candidate, greg ormen as the only opponent against republican pat roberts, roberts, his job approval numbers might lose in november, even though kansas is a deeply red state. Kansass republican secretary of state has ruled that taylors name must remain on the ballot. A decision that may lead to litigation, but that seems consistent with kansas law. So that will the votes that the democrat still receives with his name still on the ballot, will those votes be enough to affect the race between roberts and orman, thats a key question. A poll last month showed in a twoway race, or mon would lead roberts, 4333 . Ahead of the republican incumbent in kansas. Were still waiting to see new polling on the race after whats happened this week. This is pretty much an unprecedented situation. The bottom line, the race in kansas, a state that hasnt elected a nonrepublican to the senate in 82 years, is now a real race. A key race for the battle to control of the United States senate. Democrats obviously are betting if orman wins and they need his vote to keep control of the senate that he will be with them. But will he . After all, not a lot is known about greg orman. And suddenly everyone is asking this and other questions about him. He hasnt said this much, either. Fortunately, we had him on our show two sundays ago. Our interview is so far the only National Television interview with greg orman, the man who could end up singlehandedly deciding which Party Controls the u. S. Senate. The first question i asked him when he was on the show was about that scenario. If he gets elect and if its a deadlock in the senate, which party does he side with . Ultimately if i get elected, theres a reasonable chance that Neither Party will have a majority in washington. And if thats the case, what ive said is im going to caucus with whichever party is willing to actually go to washington and start trying to solve problems, as opposed to just pleasing the extremists in their own base. Looking at those two parties right now, do you have a sense which one has done a better job of that . You know, frankly, i think both parties have been sending, sending extremists to washington. People are more interested in pleasing the partisans in their own base, and really not solving problems. I asked him about the Affordable Care act. Would he as a senator vote to repeal it. As long as the president s in the white house, i think its impractical to say that the law is going to go off the books. I think what we ultimately need to do is look at the things that are driving Health Care Costs in this country and try to, try to solve the problem in a real rational, commonsense way, as opposed to positioning for political gain here. And then theres the issue of medicate expansion under the Affordable Care act. The republican governor of kansas, Sam Brownbeck has resisted that. Is greg orman for expanding medicaid or against it . I think the message that governor brownback has sent to the working poor in kansas, if you have a health care crisis, your best solution is to quit your job. And i think thats a bad message to send. I think we have, we have a real issue in kansas with our critical access facilities. That are now underfunded as a result of governor brownbacks decision. And so ultimately i think hes, hes made a poor decision. And what about Immigration Reform . Will he support the plan that is now sitting in the house, a path to citizenship for the undocumented with fines and penalties . I think if youre here on an undocumented basis, you should have to register with i. C. E. You should have to pay a fine or perform some community service, as an acknowledgement that the law has been broken. I think if you uphold the laws, hold down a job and pay taxes, you should be able to stay here. I asked him about the governors race in kansas. Sam brownbacks bid to win reelection. Who is he supporting in that race . You know im not making that decision public. I think your voting behavior is ultimately a private behavior. Im looking for people who want t