By and talk to us at while a prominent can petition. And this is an ally of Nelson Mandela. This isnt always great to talk to you. Thank you very much for your time as well. Lets see. Now, youre literally your worlds apart from russia and ukraine in johannesburg, some 15000 kilometers away from where we are. How much attention is given to this conflict in your part of the world and how is that covered the world . Is the global really, you know, uh huh. Theres nothing any way where that is in the oscar to home. Do what i said. Thank you, model for right now, whether it is body music is there with them or youre going over the discussion by love all with or that we get these things on time on the floor. And i must say, lou from the stops we have it. But its our disappointment. Am i the think that theres been attempts, though, since i news, we come from the lens of Nelson Mandela. We come from the background and the history of class. Hes a party, it was a home or 1st room you owe us. And when the listeners must understand that theres either go on to a lot of them said in nazi germany. And after 945. 00, they came here to start their own promo for all of them, or fascist and with a party. So. So from the length of next monday, we know what since i see, we know what the war hes, wed know what aggression use and therefore the news is we wanted to where we see everything theyre supposed to do with modern technology media. You know that from the very beginning there has been a disagreement. Oh, who are the main protagonist . Whether it is neighborly, tries between a russian ukraine for the independence of your cream or whether it involves some other actors as well. How do you see it . When i started by expressing from my slides yellow, our sense of those, those where human beats and i sense of the progress to see what i can see, the brother and sister at wal ross. Well this fiber optic us with my ukrainians. And by us it was breaking silence mcdaniels do so i me of all goes to who formed is the ha break receipt. Grove, i insist i gave of a sister. Thats the 1st thing i want to say. We also b because remember we did not have a kind of didnt belong to us. The most of it washes them than not just waiting to hear the lester and many, many parts of the world give us the whole. Marsha dogma, our whole my home as a particular time was to discuss the use of the soviet union. My own was most school, and i said this in my whole watsonville group is also this one. It was what i find out for our audience because in your younger years, you trained as a military engineer in lots of places around the soviet union. Can i ask you this opportunity and ask you whether you saw any difference between the russians and the ukrainians at that time, political, ethnic culture . And do you think this war, this current conflict could have been avoided with the soviet union was not what the difference is. That the b 5 among the people who are being thought of info on what i was received by one group of people. Remember i had to finance. I lived in central for the not this is of us. The 4th, i lived in, in linda after the time. So they, they quoted a group of it. But most of the time we did do multiple, what are the differences, maybe, but the way that its about be aware of these things. But when you buy one people, nothing for it thus lighted the when the country is broken off in 1991, theres nothing we can do. But when this terrible quantity is taking place, it affects us as well. And well hope, and we have what suggestions about how this thing must come to an end, because all was at the end of the mouse come to an end when, before we talk about how it may and do you think it could have been to that . Absolutely. Absolutely, and i will say, what are stated in public, ill state what is the said over even by mean other at the end of 1945 would not change the story is to all k. We had 2 organizations when the cold war we got we had not prompted to juggle greece and, but also does the standards from impala these limited, sadly, organization. Is there not a Big Organization or the programs if they asked for less than 45. 00 . Until monday tonight im with where did the cold war . And so when that was all forwarded over mid to was kept the life mental is a war or gun is the issue. So the big so the progress of Mental Health care for life at no body can distill this. And were fighting for this point where the people see if were going to see that nobody can see that. But yet we hear over and over again from western politicians, from nato officials that need harbors no malicious intent v. Russia. Thats a good one. So im a k c as a flu, find somebody who wants the strike use a party with legal kinds of were healthy. What does natal doing now think about what the government given them. Weapons has been the given the with yeah. Because would not try to change, use the, i know todays quote, you know, who granted dropped the you go fight like it is under whose rescue been in 5 got to fight against the attack was if it does become questionable by the full remain. Naples thought that will be what russia when you do of it. No, i think youd be that. When i said that was set up this one to stick with about one off around that islamic terrorists will come from iraq. Celia and other i have now come a doctor got exhibit come to so my the other come to laws. Im be next to us and they started the war here. This current last year, me our so just because the data is now next door, theres times off of that that is fully at wal required like use those. So not just thought barbara and number of countries do what we call the Software Development for which we went there because the data is a bit. Yes, because the so affected. Look what you must lead to the words about what was done is to we can see therefore, 2 things will have their reaction. That reaction or worse. Go to some people. What your issue now or to some people in most what was the National Security interests of russia didnt come. Nobody must come with the story, but theres no with pick me with an oil. If its not. So this is a 10, and now the 15 groove will start with your good list of your 2 of them and it comes with it. So you dont need to persuade me that you know, the Russian Security interest and both. I will, i agree with you totally here, but still this is, i think this is going to be one of the most painful conflicts for russian recent history. Precisely because of what you said we have most of us have family members in ukraine. They have childhood memories in your brain. So even if they, you know, National Security interests were involved, it was an extremely difficult decision. I will have to live with the consequences of it for years and perhaps take it to come. Now i want to turn to your own story because you have a very interesting story of fighting for what you believe to be your countrys destiny, being an anti apartheid student. Later joining the arent organization of the African National congress. Them being in south being in prison on the robin island, but Nelson Mandela, et cetera. In those terms, did you ever doubt what was right and what was wrong . How did you arrive at your own conscience and your own piece of, you know, making those decisions because, you know, fighting against what you see as injustice. You can do that. You know, in white glove. Sometimes you take measures that you hate and still you have to take them. The 1st of the few People Struggle off. What is the struggle for liberation . I give a form of mother and 1st of them was underpinned by chris for justice. Great quantities. I danced the least of them and wed play with the whole world. The 1st American People supported us, mister biden was one of the best of what us associate is not posted. We were supported from it who again, bridget, so on. So, so were driven by the chris wade quality or non gratian anderson. And for justice when the Police Report on comes all of these go through that route. Were not faced with the problem with we, we, we approach the currency issue with that kind of an i p live become that what the economy people obviously you know what . Yes or no questions here. What wasnt your gun . Yes. And one friend of mine is them is optim. What we can never accept as people wrote when we did for social justice or human rights. Is that hey, cliffs not hes been split in the world to be and will not be part of the he does not say its a sport man. You must denounce to come to play tennis. No person would expect it. You could get an answer for the sake of playing tennis or football, it will never happen. So they have to use that much. So in any case, in all possible though, were not buying, it wouldve been russian people straight as were you planning people, we try both with the security interest or prison team will also try with the national. So that is, or isnt it for you, you know, if i can, yes, we probably will see, you think sofi does all sorts of things. These are big to believe this country. But one thing we must also be trying to use your claim and theyll say persons lives. You must be aware of that. We are leaving for a u. S one. And that is the day when i was going to go to point to be the president. But most common cause and realize that these people want to fight until the last you go and you know, they want to put the weight weak is the last, when they use the new great as 10 am for the buck must come to an end. Who was a brand new light by model is a disaster. Therefore, they must come to an end to say the 3 b discussion dialog and debates for now mrs. Wiley, we have to put an end to both discussion dialogue and debate because we have to take a very short break, but we will be back in just a few moments. Stay tuned. Ah ah ah ah, so what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have. Its crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is often very dramatic, development only personally and getting to resist. I dont see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time time to sit down and talk with welcome back to wells appointment until care say, well, we have a problem. And then South African politician, businessman and an ally of Nelson Mandela. Mr. Sick, while before the break, you mentioned that in your anti apartheid struggle, you were supported by people from around the world in the americans. But i know for a fact that Nelson Mandela white some time, i mean this person who is now considered to be one of the carry is greatest terriers, assuming conscience. He was considered a terrorist and he couldnt receive an american visa for quite some time. When in your own perception, when did that sweet occur . When he start was some being seen as a, as a, as a terrorist. And suddenly it became one of the scenes. I go news for you until this dam classified as a terrorist. Im. It was took on this case with Nelson Mandela, went to the white house and met president george bush and other people wanted his license for one of the things i was lazy. And like i said, this question was, this thing of being continued to be classified. This tell this, you know, that is possible. Like my, its in my passport, im still restricted. I would a switch because we, we, we were having the cuttings and the owner austin the up for the freedom of our people. Now, in america and other parts of the world to us all worlds apart, like well see where some other people are supporting us and some of the people who are against us. But, you know, gave linda become a president , james. I became a premier here. Thats the mother became a president and told him that climb up with level 33. 00 in america. But when i went and talked the business, he started showing my passport again that this was so i kept on being stopped at the airport and i guess i will give them because its not the current administration, the time that best to change this law. It was not that youve been with us to read it, but because we had one, you know, because we had prevails. It was not good music america to punch in the good enough that was, but im saying that im good people in the United States than anywhere else in the world are good people in russia. What we have to do through and bates could dial through to promote discussions. We stand to make sure that this war comes to an end of some is i think the ask it is a big in the World Economy yesterday. Only the International Monetary fund. Whether right is what has downgrade the growth of the world. You know, because of what is everything, not always so, but the sanctions because the both weights not less than but we can ever hit. And its wrong for any group of countries to pick it up. One of those cells to put a gun on right, its, if you play because youre going to talk, if you do the simplest point in budget wind problem, so everybody is good bye. So when you talk about russian un publish a is also posted to certain people and i do not accept because there are also 3 people in this world. But we believe that every board, like the week there is a need for people to sit down and dissolve. Unfortunately, the talk to, to have any bells, have not lexi the put in the did and, but i want to you as somebody i know very well present with, again, i know you said the did, and i give me this meant the least you almost ready to see you but and then weve got the discussion inside, listen to the fold up. Personal questions them up. I think it is not an easy thing to take the 1st step. But somehow people have got to find it a little bit because i have been calling for data for quite some time. And i know youve been following these calls like from its very beginning and i think it was in 2015 when you published an open letter to present to 10 and a present along overcome the hubris and come to the negotiating table and to some extent this call was heated because president put in and present biden math in geneva last year. And they talked about the origins of that disagreements. But the United States continued militarize in ukraine and continued using its land to present the military french russia. Isnt there a certain point when the dial needs to stop so that the other side, you know, understands that then you know, so using that dialogue to, to deliver harm to its adversary . Not a home are so that i know was going to be the soldier, goodbye. Im our come to us or your price or more than 300 years. So i understand this thing and whether another thing i feel we can even play a role and plug it with us, you know, the about 2 months and the business of on both sides. We have been in prison for more than 15 years. So i wanted to say that the time of value is always an opportunity to be seized. Theres a lot lower cost. Is that oh, pretty much be kept alive. Ill leave with all the leaders and im not talking for any organization. I dont a little program, this is business and so well as an International Citizen and somebody will do this that we might not be that clever. Ok, but we are wise. Wisdom means that were seeing this thing before because it will end up in dire group. Lets keep the door open and ill leave my brother in law school and open a hot dog did and yourself, i understand what you said, but its time for them to sit down when to wait even, you know, just to meet face to face. I know its not easy to take the 1st step leader of the give up hope for me. I live in that hope the knows whether we, we negotiate with started talking with the enemy of that wish it was we were still your budget. And finally, if the russian, any ukrainian people and they russia and ukraine leaders indeed decide to meet the thing is within the capacity of the Ukrainian Government of the ukrainian leadership to put on not only to put an end to that war, but to implement the commencement that they may take upon themselves. I am on, which is for example, making ukraine neutral. I from what i hear on the russian, the official saying they dont want the ukrainian sovereignty, they dont want to decide anything from the ukrainians. What they want is new credit. Youre going to try and stop presenting a strategic threat to russian militarily, as long as that is taken care of ukrainians are free to receive whatever they see for themselves. But do you think this decision rather within key key capacity or that it perhaps needs to be taken, taken elsewhere, and how would you persuade those powers elsewhere . To commit to that . I know youre busy. This person please probably, but thats the essence of negotiation and deliberations. And guy looking to promote discussion, those points are easy, are the points on to be handled as the discussion . Because the 1st thing is decision of all these offices. They dont get no more book fellow who kind of and then talk about the d. P august. Government was also once those up questions for the debate. You can say do this before we go, then its something that magnitude that were going to meet about uses, of course, those things magnitude, but the subject of the discussion. So the only thing of m. C led, the brother was just like, time to themselves, discuss people come from outside and call more fuel into the situation. Prisons, the one that was supposed to been to stand up as the president with the strength of your own people. And thats what you questions about, but be careful that you play would not be controlled by others on those. So you are with so these you have to do by doing a little background and its going to take a little bit of work. But let me give him a note of, of people behind this. Ill think this is the problem. This but tell you us. And of course, the recording weapons from outside are not in the situation. We need more as church to see more jaw, not wall wall. So the people who are bringing weapons, you know, maybe time for the warehouse, all the way from equip was empty. That is what were seeing. But this most companies. But definitely, in this part of the world, we are not food by all these the makes the best things for that to come to us to the end of the day. Because the russians and economists and the end of the day, youre left on your own rica when people are ported bethel. Can i ask him very quickly about something that you mentioned before . The fact that this counseling is having the rest of the world and there are many express are wanting about the growing danger of not anger in developing countries because of the rising fuel and for the prices are prompted by the, by the sanctions, western sanctions against russia. Is and then also to some extent, a sign of supremacy when a 2nd part of the world can decide