Giving testimony today please stand and raise your hand right. Do you swear that the testimony youre going to give is the truth to the best of your knowledge. Thank you. You may be seated. Okay. The next item is c, approval of minutes. Discussion and possible action to adopt the minutes for november 16, 2016. Is there a motion to approve . Move to approve. Is there a second . Second. Okay. Is there Public Comment on this item . Okay. Seeing none are all commissioners in favor . Aye. Any opposed . Okay. The minutes are approved and for the record commissioner lee is present as well. Okay. We are on to item d continued appeals or abatement. Case on bush street owner of record bush street apartment street 100 street San Francisco california. Applicant and action requested by appellant and says it doesnt exist in code and seeks modification or reversal of abatement and this is for information everyone present, the department has seven minutes to present the case. The appellate aptd has seven minutes and each side has three minutes for rebuttal and three minutes for Public Comment. The department would like to come forward. [inaudible] [off mic] acting chief Housing Inspector. Tennessee a ten, ten bush street is consists of a dwelling unit on the ground floor here and guest rooms and tourist guest rooms on the upper three floors and about 22 rooms on each floor. We have five showers on the first floor. We have five showeros the second floor, two on the third throor with timers and one with no timer. Rehave received a complaint in october which is over six months ago from a Hotel Resident concerned that they were not getting continuous flow of water from the showers. Showers appear to let the water come on and a period of time when there was no water. During the time there is no water its a violation of the housing code. Our site inspection revealed timing devices had been installed on the common area showers. Over here on the right side. There are three timers on the showers. Is this is this type here like that. We have this type and we have this type here. Although there are minute allocations on this for both the water and the lights they dont operate so you dont get that much time. 20 people on each floor. These time devices present the continuous use of common showers a violation of section of the San Francisco housing code. Site inspections also revealed when activated some of the showers took a few minutes to heat up to the required 105degrees fahrenheit. Now this sign was posted. So the they contend its about Water Conservation but we have a chapter in the code that addresses Water Conservation and does not allow for timers in the showers. It requires low flow shower heads when we have in our homes and businesses throughout the city. So Housing Inspector steve lungvin who is here posted this notice of violation notice of violation in october we went back to reinspect. All items were outstanding which referred the case to directors hearing. Done another reinspection. We posted it, posted all of the notices in november and the directors hearing on the 17th they were given three more weeks to comply with the housing code and then right after christmas we issued an order of abatement. Then the appellant decided they wanted to challenge the order of abatement. There are seniors that live in this hotel. My father is 88 years old, cannot wash himself and i just try to imagine him trying to use this set up where the shower water comes on and comes off. One of the other 20 people that lives in the building on that floor and you try to take a shower after the person that just left you have to wait for a period of time, five minutes until you can use it so the water is not available to them so its a violation of the housing code of of the continuous availability is inherent in the housing code. Now the code does allow one other item to be restricted by the landlord and that is heat. Section 7 01c of the housing code heat shall be available for each room for 13 hours as stated. But the housing code doesnt allow for water to be restricted like this. Its implicit in the housing code that the water be continuously available. It allows for the landlord to restrict heat. Its spelled out exactly what time you can do that with but that is not the case in the case of water. Cannot be restricted per the housing code. I wanted to call up steve for a minute. This is one of our most experienced inspectors in the department of building inspection and in the tenderloin for years he can testify to the problem of the water not heating up right away. Commissioners, at the time of my initial inspection there was a number of complaints and one of them there was inadequate hot water. I tested the water. I have a temperature gauge and i let the water run for five minutes. The water never reached 10degrees. Th 100degrees and after five minutes i stop time tg and i wrote a notice of violation for no hot water. Thank you. How did you measure did you have some sort of mechanism . Yes inspectors we have its about the size of a pen and its a temperature reading gauge. And thats how you okay. All right. And thats the standard with the department in cases like this . All the inspectors have the same type of device. Perfect. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. No more questions . Yeah, i have a question. Can you give me a copy of this reference in the code youre quoting. I would like to see what it says. For the water or the heat . For the water. Right here. Thank you. So it doesnt say anything about duration. It says you have need to provide hot and cold water. It doesnt say anything about time. The housing code all things in the housing code have to be continuously available for resident use unless otherwise stated. For the example of heat it allows it is landlord to restrict to 13 hours a day. It makes no provision for the restriction of water. Okay. Thank you. Appellate. Good morning gentlemen and commissioner clinch thank you for asking the question. Its germ ain to my appeal today. There is a simple principle in the law if something is not illegal its legal very simple. No where in the code are water restribting devices prohibited. No where in the code does it refer to continuously available that adjective continuous or continuously doesnt exist in the code. In the documents you have in front of you under staff findings and recommendations i just want to review a couple of those specifically number 3. The Property Owners failure to comply with the notice has created hazardous condition for the occupants. I would argue strongly potential not not having water for a couple of minutes is not hazardous and i wonder what they would use for seriously hazardous issue. Number 4 and restrict the flow of the common showers in the hotel. These devices are not necessary for Water Conservation. True. These devices are not necessary for Water Conservation nor are motion senses when you have fluorescent light bulbs or a myriad of other examples that owners use across the city to run the properties efficiently. It doesnt mean theyre prohibited. Low flow shower heads are required by the San Francisco code and doesnt require that shower flow be interpreted. True. It doesnt require it but doesnt prohibit it and thats the specific issue today. Nothing in the code prohibits water restricting devices. Nothing in the code makes reference to providing continuous water flow to the showers. I am hesitant to go down the rabbit whole of the philosophical discussion here because my argument is simple and its not prohibited and its not november for the official to say its illegal and prohibited and vague and without citing a section that prohibits the activity in. If you read the section that has been provided specifically prohibits the activity. Therefore my argument is its legal and i will share with you as a small segue this is a common Living Environment and are Water Conservation goals hereby installing these devices but theyre not the soul goal of the ownership. In a shared environment where you have multiple people sharing showers, kitchens, other familiarities there has to be some type of order with respect to the use of the common use facilities and as you imagine there are rush times with showers in particular. So the timer was set in a way to help meter people through so no one tenant would abuse the showers and take an hour for a shower. The five minutes was set under the reasonable assumption it takes about five minutes to get out of the shower, towel themselves off and grab their hygiene kit and belongs and exit the bathroom so the inconvenience on any tenant without one sitting out the door is minimal and its not the forum to address those particular issues. I will go back to my argument. Something is not illegal, it is therefore legal and none of the code cited prohibits this activity. If someone wants to have a conversation off line and shortening the time and timers thats a normal landlord conversation and you can imagine if we werent providing shower facilities to tenants this room would be full with people and cameras and people have access in this building and the building went through a tremendous amount of ownership since our ownership took over and why the room is not full of really angry upset tenants. Any questions . Commissioner lee. How do you come about with the time limits . How did you decide that . Currently theyre set for 12 minute showers and a five minute shut down period. How did you determine that it was adequate . Based with discussion with on site staff and reasonable assumptions related to the timers. Did you discuss it with the clients . The clients . The people that use the showers. Oh im sorry, the tenants. Yes. Not specifically. I will share with you that the bathrooms have been a point of argument before which is the main reason actually that the timers initially went in and at one point an allegation of a tenant pointing a gun at another one over a shower issue. I have a second question. How did you install these timers . Im not sure i understand the question. Did you use a plumber . Did you break out the wall . Did you tie something into the types . Yes, we used a plumber and it was entirely permitted. Commissioner mccarthy. Youre very articulate man and took your time and read the code and i understand it and i am looking at you and scratching my head and why are we wasting our time here about some heated water which seems to me theres a few things that upset me with respect to common living and one of them is heat. Boilers were breaking down in the town a lot and take months to fix and for something that should be fixed right away, all right and people suffered because of that. It bothered me why the landlord we are talking about hot water and five, ten minutes and someone using it. I am trying to understand where is your savings here . I dont understand why were here. You run a tight and efficient building and i commend you for but youre not crossing the line with the hot water. Its a great question and i am more than happy to have the conversation with residents what everyone perceives to be reasonable. I am here for one reason. I have been in this business for 17 years, small Property Owner and i dont always agree with what the department sundays our way. I am here on principle. Right . I am here to make sure that you all do your job and check our own government when they exceed their authority and this is not anything negative against the inspector and hes pleasant and dealt with a lot at that building and cordial with the response ask i take no issue with the inspector or anyone else at the property but when someone in a position of authority exceeds their authority its incumbent upon me as a citizen to come in your position and let you know and push back on that and so you know if after this the board of supervisors wants to pass some law preventing this fine. Fine. Let them have that political discussion in room 400 but this issue is very narrow and i am not here to save a couple of bucks. The usage of water doesnt affect me whatsoever because we have a Master Tenant in place and im not involved in the daytoday operations and whether whatever the amount of the bill is makes no difference. I get my money. I am here on principle. Its that simple. After 17 years this is the first time here and i had enough. I appreciate your honesty and respect but you have to understand how it comes off. It comes off really bad. You understand that . Yes, we have code but we have human issues as well that we have to deal with and we try to find that balance and thp inspectors go out and if they help you answered my question. It doesnt impact and you are here to haggle over the code and youre right and we have the autonomy to make decisions how we interpret the code and how hot water is a right we think it should be given to everybody unless there is a reason they cant give it and you havent given us that. I understand what youre saying and its more of a sill fof cal argument and conservation by the way thats a cause worth fighting for and as i mentioned earlier though i didnt go into detail we had some serious criminal issues of people arguing over the shared facilities. We had to install 20,000 camera system after someone reported a gun was pulled on them and as a landlord we have to implement reasonable measures to help the Living Environment live amicably; right . So there is that real issue as well but sometimes we should look at it issue narrowly. If you have inspectors running around the city want interpreting code the they want and bending and stretch tg its not good for the city or for us as a law abiding country; right . I think were taking it too far. We are given the autonomy to use the code for the best practices and thats what is in front of us here. I hear you. I hear you, but again if something is not illegal its legal. In my mind its that simple. Now after this if tenants want to sit with us and talk about this. If theres a Senior Citizen having an issue using the one push button timer which i argue is simpler than a shower valve. Lets have that discussion. I am willing to spend the money for those in need. This is not a money issue; right . This is the department having a tremendous amount of autonomy, a tremendous amount of discretion which i think they should but they also need to have limits. Every government body and agency should have those limits. Again its not enough to come up and say well mr. President i dont like blue coat. Im a Police Officer and i decided to write you a ticket for that because i feel like it, so loosely interpret the code and say its indecent exposure. [inaudible] [laughter] by the way i have no issue with your coat. I think weve had enough questions unless somebody else has one and hear from the department for a three minute rebuttal. Well, i very much appreciate the arguments raised by the appellate. However i am puzzled because when they filed their appeal they do talk about Water Conservation and now its not really about Water Conservation. Its about a principle so lets take the principle and look at it closer. I am glad you raised the issue of light motion censors. This is an issue we ran into other hotels and installed timers and put in light motion censors in the rooms so the lights go off while people are taking the shower so if you apply thursday principle to the landlord restrict all parts of the code. I mean it just makes for a nightmare of code enforcement. The doors or windows or ventilation where does that end . So while we appreciate the arguments of the appellant we are stuck here in the real world where people need hot water. Senior citizens need hot water and we believe its incumbent upon this department to enforce the code. Thank you very much. Thank you. The appellate has three minutes for rebuttal. Yeah, just a couple of things to add. In one of the bathroom alleviate the traffic situation converted to three at great expense. The hot water issue as the inspector said and not getting a certain temperature it was fixed in 24 hours, very quickly. Where the code is clear we have been extremely responsive and where the code is clear. The representative from the Department Just mentioned motion censors. I would argue that is different. When you have a device not working and if the lights go off its not working as intended. Different issue and doesnt mean its illegal and i will say in the public on record if the tenants want to sit down with us, if they have particular issues to work through that we need to address particularly because of a disability or what not i am happy to do it. If there is discussion to be had over the length of the shower valves i am happy to do it. I am asking the commission to enforce the law today and not let it go down that slippery slope. Thats it. Thank you gentlemen. Any Public Comment . Sonia does Public Comment require being sworn in . No. I am tenant debbie davis and in 128 and resided there 13 years. The timers considering the length of my hair. Im not in the best shape. I had two knee surgeries. The timers, the water doesnt heat up within 60 seconds the ones does a few minutes. I delineated using that shower because it takes too long. I cant wash myself and my hair in three minutes and go down the hall and takes 30, 60 seconds if youre the first one in the morning. Washing my hair and when the water goes off and there is no water and i am standing there and its running down my back and creating a slippery floor and i have to get out and turn it back on and thats a hazard. I think the water should be continuous so you can take your shower and get out. By having the timers youre creating a hazard situation and theres people in that building that are worse off than i am. Thats all i have to say. Okay. Thank you very much. Next speaker. Hello commissioners. My name is gary and i have been living there since 2003 and just one day i woke up and went to take a shower and all of a sudden there were shower timers. We werent given any type of notice that they were going to be timers. We didnt know how to use them. They were just on the walls. From 2003 until the shower timers were put in we had no problems with people having to wait for the bathrooms. They were enough bathrooms that everyone could take a shower. People were not abusing the time to take a shower. Since the shower timers were put in as debbie was saying it does not give you enough time.