There needs to get out there. There needs to be a way to reconcile between brit british or european or american. Rose we conclude with a look at Robert Redford and his performance in a new movie called all is lost directed by j. C. Candor. Cinema is active these days. Its very entertaining. Special effects and cutting and post work and so forth. But this was like almost going back to the time of silent movies. It allowed for an actor a real chance to be completely an actor. A lot of actors can think on screen and in a nonverbal way but hes actually able to communicate complex emotional transitions, if that makes sense have a thought, come, progress and then have a conclusion all about without saying a word. Rose maajid nawaz, john miller, Robert Redford and j. C. Candor when we continue. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. The death and homicides of over one million civilians in iraq. The fact that the u. S. Is supporting the deaths and killings of thousands of palestinians does not justify the killing of one u. S. Civilian in new york city or washington, d. C. Rose that j. D. Nawaz is here. Hes the author of radical, my journey out of islamic extremism tony blair said this book should be read by anyone that understands how the extremism that stalks our world is treated and how can be be overcome. It can only be written by someone who lived this story. Also joining me, john miller, formerly of the f. B. I. And my colleague at cbs news. Im pleased to have both of them here. This is as many of you know who i do many things that john miller says and so you said we should have a conversation here. Why . This book is remarkable in that it is the story of radicalization written by the person who is being radicalized and you go through the process of his radicalization, into egypt where hes accused of trying to top it will government, into the prisons where hes tortured, among the prisoners where he meets other people and out the other end of that tunnel where he sees a light to say this is a complex web of halftruths. I just got the other half of the story. And the reason i find this story and maajid fascinating is that, you know, there are others out there like Anwar Alawlaki who are radicalizing people by the dozens efshd over the internet. There is no antialawlaki. There is no credible alternative. Rose a person articulating ideas. He is as close to anybody like that as weve seen so i wanted to push this conversation to a wider audience. Rose so tell me how you became who you are today. Well, a crucial part of my history is the 13 years of my leadership of an organization. It forms the person who i am today. I cant disown my past. Im taking measures to correct my own previous mistakes. But its also crucial because im using many of what i term as the Transferable Skills that i learned at the helm of an Islamist Organization and cofounding that organization in countries and use those Transferable Skills to now organize young people in pakistan, for example, for democratic activism so they can advocate car the Democratic Values on the grassroots and inoculate them against extremist narratives. Rose you want people to know especially young people, that there is an alternative. The only successful social movement out there in the middle east at this moment that have been renegotiating the social contract and attracting young people what the future should be look like has been islamists. Nobody hack working on the grassroots to organize young people for democratic culture and values. At the same time, detaching those values and that culture from western Foreign Policy decisions because they are not one in the same thing of course france disagrees with america, disagrees with britain in their Foreign Policy, also subscribe to Democratic Values so were trying to distinguish values from Foreign Policy and advocate far buy in to the values themselves. Rose what is it that attracted you in the first place to this kind of early life in islamist politics . I was born and raised in the u. K. In a place called essex and i experienced severe and violent racism. Things like hammer attacks, machete attacks, false arrests by the police. My 16yearold brother had been playing in the park with a toy gun, as a plastic gun as children do and the police decided we almost had been about to rob a bank and they mounted a surveillance operation and came after us at gunpoint that very evening. Things have changed considerably in the u. K. Since then but these were the bad old days when it was quite severe. That coupled with the bosnia genocide led to me feeling very disaffected and disconnected from british society. I didnt feel british at the same time i didnt feel pakistani. When i talk about the process of radicalization certain key things have to exist. Someone a sense of grievance whether real or perceived and the other is an identity crisis and with those two factors in place it was very easy for what i call charismatic recruiter to come in and exploit that sense of grievance, exploit that identity crisis and sell or peditoll me these halftruths. Rose your brother had something to do with it. My brother was very attracted to the islamist ideology. Ive got to say that he left the islamist ideology before i did. And, you know he hes a complicated person and i still have a very i love him very much as my brother but he still doesnt necessarily agree with my approach from challenging islamic extremism even though he left this organization. In fact, he wouldnt agree with much in this book and hes asked me to make that very clear. Rose why do you think and because you have had wide experience and deep experience in counterterrorism that there has failed to be articulated a counternarrative . I have thought about this for a long time because theres no one obvious answer but here are a couple key observations. On the one side of the ledger you have government. But theyre the exact wrong people to give the narrative. In some measure youve got people who are clothing the radical ideology in religion so you dont want government decoding religion. Its not their role and they dont have the credibility. On the other hand, youve got the muslim groups in the United States, Muslim Public Affairs council, care, muslims of america, but their primary brief has been on civil rights. Are people being profiled . Are they being some of the things that maajid just talked about. And while they give lip service more than lip service. Theyve all decried terrorism saying its wrong but its not their daily theme so there live this is big gap and it raises the question why is there not an american you . I think there are many reasons for that. Youve hit the nail on the head. Many Muslim Community based organizations, their brief has been to defend civil liberties. And theres nothing wrong with that. And there is a gap. And none of you should thank me for saying you should not be killed. Thats not the baseline, thats not the end point. Thats the starting point of the conversation. Sadly the debate within and among muslim communities ends there rather than starts there. They think by condemning terrorism and the killing of innocents that their duty has been done and the rest of it is the civil rights brief, which is very important. So whats the call to arms . What im saying is this more muslims need to speak out not just the violence but against the bigotry and the hate and the intolerance within the islamist ideology to distinguish islamism from islam. The reason it hasnt been done is 0, of course, its not very safe work. People in do this work are threatened on a daily basis and many of them are killed. And thats something if you take pakistan and the work we do there, i dont need to talk much about mall mall and she was a young girl. So if youre not a young girl, youre a man and youre doing this work youre more of a target because its deemed more acceptable than it is to kill young children. Yufs. Rose and he just found out he was on alshabaab hit list. And theres been a video with you as the target for the very work youre doing . The somali terror group that was apparently decided the ken behind the kenyan mall attacks issued Death Threats and two of us have been named among four other people and the other person is a doctor who is engaged in some of the reform work within the discourse that is so necessary. Rose what is the quinn Yum Foundation . And we wanted to as a a counterterrorism think tank. It was to discuss and write about the counterislamism ideas, to advocate the for democratic culture, you aalize the media in the messaging bad sol we could present alternatives. If radicalization can be summed up as a sense of grievance, an identity crisis, charismatic recruiters and ideological narratives then the opposite of those four need to happen. Grievances need to be addressed. Halftruths are exactly that, the other half of the story needs to be filled in. The recruiters. There needs to be a level of character assassination on people like Anwar Alawlaki arrest here in the United States where he was found soliciting prostitution. That message needs to get out there. When we talk about the identity crisis there needs to reconcile being british and muslim or american and finally the ideology needs to be unpicked and democratic alternatives need to be presented. Rose so a young man comes to you and says look, im leaning this way, im leaning to a place where i find some identity and some recognition and i think some appreciation of where i am in this world. What is the central message that you arkansas tick late . There are two stages. First of all the bulk of our work is on prevention so its the stop the young men joining. And, of course, we do do somenr work on intervention which is to get somebody to leave rose but im positing someone whos there. Im saying i find some attraction for these reasons, civil rights violations, racism, unemployment. Whatever. Id let him speak and find out what is making รท young man or woman angry. Then theres a process of conversation that needs to happen. Its not in one sitting. Itninr includes things like completing the picture. The islamist narratives say that theres a global war against muslim and arabs. Our job is to demonstrate the complete picture. co where they say as evidence that the u. S. Is fighting muslim there iss the invasion of iraqi thexels rendition to torture and these are not lies. Theyre pointing to things that exist. Our job is to say well, hold ono axd minute. The reasons the u. S. Invaded iraq which i have also opposed werent because the iraqis were muslims. Every country has its geostrategic Foreign Policy. Lets look at you talk about killing of muslims. Actually, more muslims have died in pakistan from talibanni and o qaeda strikes than they have from u. S. Drone strikes despite the fact i opposeco the strikes, lets look at who the real victims are and who the perpetrators are. So were trying to complete this picture here bufo none of that in fact, all of that will fallnr on deaf ears unless theres a social machinery to send out messages across the middle east. Rose what if somebody says look, you have have a good point but this is a war within islam. Its not our business. My question is why are we fighting on two different battlefields . Maajid, if you go looking for him, youd find him on 60 minutes. Youre going to reach 20 Million People there. Thats a bigni impact. Youll find him on charlie rose, a bignr audiencenr youll find m on cbs news. But youll find a ted talk but you dont really findni 80 maajd nawaz videos on youtube the way you find Anwar Alawlaki. I dont understand why not. You can make a speech. nr and we can how simple is that to do . Is why they playing on one Playing Field and you are playing on senate to we are so behind its frustrating. Quill yam has been around for five years weve struggled and toiled because weve been told time and again this isnt defined as charity work. If youre building a school or orphanage or hospital they can fund it. Only this year secretary ofni state kerry has partnered with turkey for a global fund for Engaging Community resilience. 200 million. 12 years after 9 11 were getting to it. Rose and giving 200 million. And theyre talking about a 200 million fund where the u. S. Puts up money and turkey puts up money and theycwant other countries to round the 200 million out but its the first sign of a cohesive global effort. Its 12 years too late but the symbolism is important innr that its the first time this work has been defined as a good deed because prior to that it isnt seen as charitable work and foundations are reticent because they dont want to engage in these ideas. They are nervous. Its politically incorrect. But of course i think that that times have gone behind it if we dont recognize are they nervous or afraid . I think perhaps both. Perhaps both. And i think if we dont recognize the fact that i caricatured george bushs strategy, neoconservatism, as imposing democracy at the barrel of the gun. However president near conservatism light because he moved the values piece and kept the gun. What we should have been focusing on is the values themselves because by p found to realize is theres an ideology out there which is the soois geist of many thousands of angry young muslims that has grown into a fully blown insurgency such as in syria, what happened in north mali, such as in yemen, in pakistan in the northern territorys and unless we recognize this is an insurgency which has an ideology behind it, that our job is to make the islamist ideology as unattractive rose here is the thing ill come back to the point i made earlier. Radical fundamentalism is what percentage ofni islam . Wellni, his islamism is aco l percentage. Rose why arent the other 9s doing what other people articulated which is is youre trying to hijack our religion and this is what we stand for. This is the kind of narrative, not your kind of narrative. This is the question i ask when i go to pakistan and engage with the young people. Why are we so quick to protest, for example, israeli actions in the west bank. But when moreni muslims die by l qaeda theres no counterprotest and part of the reasons, part of the answer i get back as well as being accused of all sorts of things when i go back to pakistan is one of the reasons is the power dynamics. Theres a serious identity crisis at play within the middle east and people dont feel comfortable as is the case and all situations like this. Do you have access to most venues in europe and the middle east . When you say venues in other words you can speak where you want to speak . Including security . Yeah. Of course rose security is the primary things were concerned about in terms of where you go and what you say . Yeah, i think this news became i got a call from london, this news just came in about alshabaab naming me. This is a sort of thing where even in london theres a concern because theres a huge according to their official estimates theyre monitoring up to 2,000 sympathizers in britain itself. Rose going back to the Obama Administration you said frustratingly the Obama Administration took its eye completely off the ball in the crucial ideas debate and made the policy of targeted drone killings than bushs. Obamas administration turned towards a crude results driven desire of body bags when tactics became the strategy. You lose sight of the overall aim. So thats whynr you call it neoconservatism light. Ive achieved more now tuay in a lifetime. I think president obama had his own Mission Accomplished moment that we remember so vividly that george bush had and i think al qaeda if you look at them, theyre controlling territory in certain regions whereas prior tr this they were mereco asylum seekers. And the reason this has happened rose these are Al Qaeda Affiliated groups . They are yes. Al qaeda in zagreb, al qaeda in the arabian peninsula, and the reason this has happened is i think i believe we took our ideas off the values debate. We didnt try to makeni islamist extremism as unappealing as soviet communism has become today. Rose you may understand this better than i do. General stanley mcchrystal, for example, beganco to understand n afghanistan that it was not about you couldnt kill all radicals, you had to have a policy that showed you have some concern in terms of targeting drones, not calling on drones in the middle of the night and all things. Stanni mcchrystals whole theory was the war for hearts and minds was just as important as the war for killing the bad guys. Ifco you couldnt guarantee security, if you couldnt get the water going, if you couldnt make electricity come on for at least part of the day people werent going to believe that you wereco the answer to anythi. And killing one terrorist and his family would produce 20pvern influenced by that and radicalized by that was a negative consequence he brought the closest thing weve mean . War to Community Policing and it wasnt all that popular among people in this community because they said were taking hits and turning the other cheek. Rose and youre not letting us go. Exactly. So the idea was hearts and minds are important and i guess the argument against the Drone Program is that the Collateral Damage is making more enemies and radicalizing more people than the good theyre getting from the far get. The flip side of that coin is and i say this from my view from working in the office of the director of National Tell intense, of all the tools you could have used, troops on the ground moving into that stronghold you might have Collateral Damage, you might lose americans if you wont over with a net 15 youd wipe out the whole village instead ofnrni ony in one car as targeted as those things can be. If you used a helicopter gunship. I think in thexd lesser of evils they identified the dronenr stre as not the perfect weapon but the weapon that had the