Kicking donald duck, that this had just gone so far, maybe too far. Was there not an argument, especially since theyve brought in an outside expert they didnt just sit there and try to do this themselves, they went to a person respected by both sides and said, give us a fair map, which you now see on the right. Was this technically the wrong thing to do . Maybe is it not for the best . Well, first of all, i would dispute that the expert was somebody accepted by both sides. We didnt know him, so number one. Number two but i will say, ive seen republicans as well give him kudos for previous work. Lets just say for the sake of argument that the other map, you know, was not was not contiguous and compact enough. Theres a process here, and theres a legislature. Theres a judicial theres a democratic process for fixing these things. Now, for five judges on the Supreme Court to stand up and tell the General Assembly that they know better, that in 16 days you guys have to draw a new map, and if you dont do it were going to do it for you, under the guise of independence when we all know this was a partisan effort started by obama and holder for fair districting. And then to set the legislature up for failure, knowing they couldnt draw a map in that amount of time, and saying, if you dont do it, were gonna do it, is troubling to anybody that cares about rule of law, that cares about a constitutional republic. And whats to stop the Supreme Court from doing this on any number of issues that the legislature will tackle . Does it mean anything to you that they throw out the republicans map . They didnt like wolfs effort, they said, never mind, well do something ourselves . And then they picked a map that was probably as partisan as you can make it. One independent expert said, this is the Democratic Partys dream. Well, in fact, lets talk about that, joe, because the headlines from national outlets, local outlets pretty much said the same thing this is a win for democrats. We go from, in this area, three districts that tend to be democratic, three that are republican to at least five that are expected to go democratic, maybe even all six. How do you not see this, for the average person, as looking pretty partisan . Well, look, were undoing an outrageous gerrymander from 2011, so anything that was going to be a redrawing of the map was going to look better for democrats. And, you know, for the folks who say that this is a democrats dream, its not. Theres still more republican districts in the state than there are democratic districts. Itll be 10 trump districts for 8 hillary districts, and that still advantages republicans. I havent lost my ability to do math. Okay, but then lets talk about why is this bothering everybody now . Sure. His party came to power using a map drawn by democrats. Democrats voted for this map. It couldnt have passed without democratic votes in 2011. Sure. Why all of a sudden, 2016, 2017, 2018, this is a problem . It does look a little suspicious. Well, it could, but it think that, tam, this isnt about the rule of law. This is about, you know, a partisan power grab. You know, the only time that, you know, the other side wants to talk about partisan judges and activist judges well, theyre only activist when theyre democrats, and, you know, the other side has done plenty of things by judicial rule. Theyve dismantled the Voting Rights act, they allowed for citizens united, but its on us now, apparently, to give people the right to vote who they want to vote for. That feels like a valid i need to give you an opportunity to respond. 200 years of precedent this is the way weve been doing it in this country, and now, you know, after three elections that weve had in this decade under these maps, all of a sudden its unconstitutional. Look, rule of law is important. Its what separates us from much of the rest of the world. Any thirdgrade civics student knows theres separation of powers. So now we. One of the standards in the Supreme Courts decision well, the standard was compact and contiguous. Draw as few municipality precinct and county splits as possible. Joe scarnati and mike turzai on the republican side present a map which had 70 splits. But it was found to largely continue to do the same thing, which is keep the map looking better for republicans. Well, theres nothing in the constitution that says it has to be better for one side or the other. The standard that they said was that it had to be compact and contiguous. Then they drew a map, the Supreme Court, that had 93 splits, had more splits, did not minimize them, potentially violated the Voting Rights act. So and split communities of interest all across the state. So, heres the thing legal experts think that the Supreme Court is not going to take this. They have declined in recent days previous suits. What do you do . Youre twoandahalf months out. What are you gonna do . If the Supreme Court weve got two lawsuits, one in the Supreme Court, one in the middle district of pennsylvania for an injunction. If they dont, i guess weve got a constitutional crisis on our hands. Ill be calling for, potentially, the impeachment of Justice Wecht next week. Does that just inflame things, talking about impeachment . This is the legislature having to make sure that its prerogatives and its power are kept in place. Whats to stop them from doing this again on any other piece of legislature . And shouldnt you be concerned about that . Its working out, perhaps, in your favor this time, but are you worried in 2020, 2030, what youve opened the door to could come back to bite you . No doubt, but what the Republican Party of pennsylvania is doing right now is no different than President Trump questioning the integrity of a judge in hawaii because of his mexican heritage and his ability to do his job. Dont bring racism into this. This is about partisanship. Okay, thats not racism. Youre saying that because theyre democrats they are partisan, and they are going to be, you know, favoring a democratic map. They did. They did. So, val brought up the map that the Senate Pro Tem and the House Speaker submitted to the court. Now, the order from the Supreme Court said specifically, and most legal experts would agree, that they wanted a legislative process within 18 days 18 days to draw a map through the legislative process, which is how every other map has been drawn thus far. Joe scarnati and mike turzai decided to throw a partisan temper tantrum and not submit a map until midnight the day it was due. Ive seen them run we didnt get the order until two days before. Ive seen them run legislation to restrict Womens Health within 72 hours, so when its an attack on the civil rights of people of pennsylvania, its done very quickly. Obviously, you guys have very different points of view. Are you worried about a challenge from the left . The common cause and naacp says they think this is not good for black voters, that theyve gone from having two districts that they think represent them well to just one. Sure. You know, it is definitely a concern to democrats that folks in the naacp would be, you know, concerned about the maps. But id say that, you know, across the country there are a number of districts where the representative in congress does not look like the people that they represent or the plurality of the people that they represent. In the 5th district, which is now philadelphia and Delaware County, a person of color could win. In the 2nd district, where Brendan Boyle now represents, a person of color could win. Lets take a big step back. The average guy out there on the street he just hears it as either party in power pushes it for what they want. Sure. It gets silly. This is what happened it finally got to the point to some people, that it got silly and its just more fighting, the kind of stuff that makes people not vote, not want to engage, think everybodys bad. You guys together is there some way we could do this where we wouldnt have to be here, where we could have something that works for you and works for you and average person out there doesnt think its just your turn to have the ball, there. You go, your turn. There, you go. I think we had that process. The fair districting process was working the way through the legislature. The General Assembly was gonna get to decide this with the governor, the way it should be done. When courts hiding under the guise of independence and nonpartisanship make a partisan decision its bad for the whole system. I know what youre saying, but you know right now wolf and harrisburg are not getting anything done. Is there a way to take it out of this so that people get a map they can feel good about, that it makes sense to them. These are my neighbors, theyre in my district, and it doesnt have to keep sitting in allow it to proceed through the General Assembly. Allow it to proceed through the General Assembly. Let the democratic process work. And theres a bill currently in the General Assembly thats, you know, not gonna make it out of committee because the g. O. P. Wont let it out of committee. But to establish an independent redistricting commission, that would be staffed by citizens would you support an independent commission . It depends on how it was drawn to pick 10 names out of the phone book, elect them, draw lines. Remember, the idea here is to pick communities of interest, is one of the goals here. Whos in the best decision to do that but elected representatives . Thats the way its been done for 200 years. To have 10 people out of the phone book who may or may not know how to do that but you do politics for a living. You know parities. Your job is to get more republicans, your job is to get more democrats. Wheres his lawsuit in illinois where they have a seat that makes the 7th district look like a contiguous seat . Wheres that seat . But illinois is packed with democrats. This is as partisan as could be. The idea, the narrative, that theyre pursuing, the greater good, is nonsense. This is partisan. You dont like Nathan Persily who drew this map from stanford. Is there an outside expert everybody could agree on who has nothing to do with politics . There are lots of people who draw maps. The 253 elected senators and representatives are the experts. Thats why we elect them. Well, you guys are not going to agree. Im gonna take a break and come back to the panel whos going to continue to see if maybe they have some ideas about this. 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Switch to fios and get a year of netflix on us with a two year agreement. Go to getfios. Com to switch today. Welcome back to inside story. Lets introduce you to the panel. We will start with george burrell. Good morning, tam. Attorney and nonprofit exec. Columnist christine flowers, attorney. And Temple University law professor who focuses on elections, jim eisenhower, good show for you. Yes. Thank you, tam. And documentarian sam katz who also and an expert on losing elections. [ laughter ] and also on how election laws should work. Lets get going on, i guess, the big question of the moment. As val pointed out, theyve got two lawsuits going. Most experts say, i dont think theyre going to get traction. Do you agree with that, or do you think there might be a surprise here . Ill start with you, jim. Yeah, i think that theyre not likely to succeed. Ive read the opinion that justice todd issued. Its 139 pages. A lot of it is maps. But its very finely written. Justice todd is a very respected justice, and she bases the entire ruling on the pennsylvania Supreme Court excuse me, the pennsylvania constitution, which is why the Supreme Court has already rejected an appeal here. Theres no federal jurisdiction, so i dont see any likelihood that theyre gonna get a federal court involved here. Does it mean something that alito wrote the last opinion, who was sitting on the bench right here in philadelphia . He knows this state, and he said, were not doing it. Justice alito oversees the third circuit, hes from new jersey, he sat here as a federal judge before he became on the Supreme Court. Yes, he knows the politics of this area very well. So, lets talk about im sorry. I will bow to jim and to sam and to george, and will say right now i think that they know a heck of a lot more about pennsylvania politics than i do. But i read the opinion as well. I even looked at the maps. And as val said, the issue is process. I dont necessarily see a federal remedy. That is a problem. You make a good point, because this decision was based entirely on the Pennsylvania State constitution. But the Pennsylvania State constitution does not give jurisdiction, authority, and power to a court to draw these maps. Its the legislature, and no matter how much justice todd and those who agreed with her in the majority say that we have the authority to do justice, you cant simply use that boot strap, a right to redraw maps, which is within the purview of the legislature. Well see if the Supreme Court or the u. S. District court chooses to agree with that and take it up. Lets talk about, immediately, what this could mean. First of all, people are trying to figure out where they run. I was going to be in that district. Now im over here in this district. Whos running against me . Incumbents are now facing some new challenges. What does this mean for people trying to figure out with twoandahalf months to go . Are there people who will get in or will not get in . Will we have as good an election with the best people stepping up, or are people going, i cant even figure this out . I think that if you want to run for public office, you dont wait for permission, and here you have an uncertain situation. If you want to be a member of congress, you need to announce your candidacy and get going. I always believe its a lot easier to drop out than it is to drop in, and for candidate, say, rich lazer who wants to run in a district that was very much one he could win he well may be able to win it he cant worry about that. Hes got to go out, start hes got money. Hes gonna raise money. In western pennsylvania, theres a couple of very significant changes, obviously in philadelphia there are two districts. Get out, run, raise money, and commit yourself to doing it, and then the outcome will be what the outcome is. Yeah, im not so worried about candidates being confused. Candidates tend to be pretty facile in figuring out where they can run. But what about voters . Are we going to see challenges after the election of people saying, i was disenfranchised. I went to my polling spot and thought i was doing this, but i didnt have the information . Yeah. Will we be back in the courts . How do you be disenfranchised . You go to the election do you really think most voters are gonna be able to make a case that they thought they were gonna vote in the 2nd district, but they found out that they were in the 3rd . Yeah, theyre gonna get a lot of communication, and the voting booths are gonna be in the same place, and i think the candidates have a clear they have clear parameters to make decisions now. Theyre gonna run in the new districts or theyre gonna run in the old district, and so you got to if its a new district, you have to decide, and many of them are deciding whether they want to do it or not, particularly for example, in congressman bradys old district that district has dramatically redefined in terms of its composition, so people are deciding whether to run in that space. But i agree with sam. I mean, those folks who want most of the people that i know who want to run, are trying to figure out where to run. Theyre not figuring out whether theyre going to run, though, i think that they would be smart to i think many of those people would be smart not run in this election. Its gonna be really complicated. I think tam makes a good point, though. I mean, i think that i mean, were twoandahalf months out from, you know, from an election. I dont necessarily think that and this is a bombshell, that youre no longer in im no longer in my district. Im in Delaware County, and my district is the one that was the most heavily impacted, i think, by this redrawing of the map, so, i mean, you know, with all due respect to the voters, i dont think people are so well informed that within twoandahalf months or two months theyre gonna be able to get back on the page. It really doesnt make any difference. If youre a new candidate, whether you are a new candidate running for the first time in the old Delaware County district or a new candidate running for the first time in the new district, nobody knows you anyway. But you will be, because neither pat meehan or bob brady are gonna nobody knows you to start in the existing district or in the new district. Y