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Faluting point against a basic one. let's look at the august 8th call. no one knew this last night. giuliani contacting and texting office of the omb over and over and over. to put it in different media language, this would be a front page story, huge deal that the president's personal lawyer and ukraine fixer not only has but is talking to omb for 14 minutes. no one at the office of management or budget had the reason to talk to him. >> acting as the president's personal lawyer, not in government. to go back to your point about congress, framers expected congress to have institutional interes...

Secretary pompeo and we were sort of rule nateing about -- ruminating what was going on. johnson said i will call president trump and find out. he obviously had that phone call. i wasn't involved in that phone call. >> okay. you had no reason to disbelieve that wasn't the way it went down, right? >> no reason to disbelieve josh johnson. >> now that you've had some time since your deposition and you've submitted an addendum related to the warsaw get-together with mr. yermak, as you sit here today, are we missing a lot of your communications with the president? >> i haven't had that many communi...

>> did you retire to the ward room? >> i think secretary perry asked to use the ward room to continue the conversation. the real subject that was under debate -- and i wasn't an angry debate -- should the call from president trump to president zelensky be made prior to the parliamentary elections in ukraine or after the parliamentary elections. and there was good reason for both. we felt, ambassador perry, ambassador volker and i felt it would help president zelensky to have president trump speak to him prior to the elections because it would give president zelensky more credibility and ultima...

Equals four, is that right? >> again, i didn't know that the aid was conclusively tied. i was presuming. he was in a position to say yes, it was or no it wasn't. >> he said yes, it was. >> he said yes, it was. >> mr. goldman. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you again, ambassador sondland. we do appreciate your efforts to refresh your recollection through the documents and we understand -- we share your frustration in not having the documents to help guide this investigation. so we do appreciate those efforts. one of the documents that you provided to us goes back to the conversation you and ...

I mean, there's nuance, ambiguities, we don't have records, we don't have notes and we don't have recollections, right? >> it's situational things that trigger memory. especially when i'm dealing with the european union, i'm dealing with the 28 member countries, i'm dealing with other countries that are not in the european union that are part of my mandate. i'm dealing with the white house leadership. there's a lot of stuff to juggle. as i said in my opening statement, a phone call for me with the president of the united states or the president of fill in the blank country, while people who ge...