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vital strategic interest for nato but it is — vital strategic interest for nato but it is for russia, any russian government, for reasons of geography and history. _ government, for reasons of geography and history, which means that the stand-off. — and history, which means that the stand—off, much more is at stake for the russians— stand—off, much more is at stake for the russians than the west, which means— the russians than the west, which means vladimir putin is prepared to id means vladimir putin is prepared to go further— means vladimir putin is prepared to go further and risk more. the west is not _ go further and risk more. the west is not going — go further and risk more. the west is not going to use military force, in my— is not going to use military force, in my view, — is not going to use military force, in my view, because it is divided. many— in my view, because it is divided. many countries but above all germany, are dependent on russian -as germany, are dependent on russian gas and _ germany, are dependent on russian gas and it— germany, are dependent on russian gas and it has no treaty obligation and i_ gas and it has no treaty obligation and i think— gas and it has no treaty obligation and i think that vladimir putin knows — and i think that vladimir putin knows this, that sending military equipment is not the equivalent to starting _ equipment is not the equivalent to starting a — equipment is not the equivalent to starting a war with russia. the uk is right— starting a war with russia. the uk is right to — starting a war with russia. the uk is right to be exploring different ways _ is right to be exploring different ways that we can put on the pressure and respond, but i think we have to be realistic— and respond, but i think we have to be realistic that strategically ukraine _ be realistic that strategically ukraine is of less importance to nato _ ukraine is of less importance to nato than — ukraine is of less importance to nato than it is to russia. nato has not a lot nato than it is to russia. nato has got a lotto _ nato than it is to russia. nato has got a lot to balance _ nato than it is to russia. nato has got a lot to balance here, - nato than it is to russia. nato has got a lot to balance here, hasn't i got a lot to balance here, hasn't it, jo, it has to be seen to be making sure that it bolsters its

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