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Or especially telling, especially nefarious. i think what we have to recognize is the u.s. government has driven him to russia. >> right. >> not him. >> and the security situation, i think -- you don't think that's true that he's been driven to russia? seems like he has been. looks like he wanted to stay in hong kong. >> right. i mean, i -- and i'm not necessarily blaming edward snowden for this. i'm not convinced he's the driver of much of his own destiny at this point. there's a question about wikileaks, about russian intelligence. look, i'm disturbed to hear somewhere from hrw which has sto...

>> right. i mean, i -- and i'm not necessarily blaming edward snowden for this. i'm not convinced he's the driver of much of his own destiny at this point. there's a question about wikileaks, about russian intelligence. look, i'm disturbed to hear somewhere from hrw which has stood up for human rights around the world saying that going to russia seems to be a rational choice. i disagree with that. >> i don't think he has a lot of other choices right now. if he did, i bet he'd be taking them. >> venezuelans seem to want him. >> the americans stopped the -- the americans stopped morales' plane f...