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>> well, the reason the cbo makes that projection is because removing the individual mandate. >> right, of course. [ overlapping voices ] >> i feel like individual mandate is one of the more pernicious parts of the affordable care act. >> i understand that. all i'm asking is whether the president, who said we are going to have insurance for everybody, this bill does not mean insurance for everybody. >> there will be access for everyone. >> but not insurance. access and insurance are different. >> well, coverage -- actual care and coverage are different. i can tell you that as a physician. ther...

Are sub stantively successful, which is to say if they actually were to passed a repeal of obamacare and it's signed by the president. that's when you're going to see a sort of nuclear backlash. if ty fa, i think the backlash is less. what do you think of that? >> i think that's right because ultimately people are going to be looking at this through the lens of what does it mean for my own care. if they are successful in putting the lives of millions of people at risk by jeopardizing their insurance and their coverage, then people are going to feel really nervous and justifiably so. now, to be...

It ends up becoming law or passing, whatever happens in the senate, ween for republicans who voted against it, they will all still pay the political cost of something that is unpopular now, that's not going to become any more popular with time given everything we've seen in past similar bills over the past, you know, few decades. when you look at democrats who voted again obamacare, most of those democrats ended up losing or having to retire. so there will very much be a political cost attached. >> that is a key point because democrats tried to do both ways. jim, you were in the senate at the ...

Passed. do you think that political gravity acts on members of the senate right now? >> i do. i mean house republicans may have been partying like it was 1999 yesterday, but the reality is that this bill is not going anywhere in the senate. senate republicans understand that. and as michael tomasky pointed out earlier, there's four moderate republicans that aren't agreeing to any of this stuff. what he failed to mention, there are three conservative republicans, lee, cruz, and rand paul, that are never going to accept anything short of full repeal of obamacare. so senator mcconnell understands...

Bill, good or bad, it won't be insurance for everybody. >> well, the reason the cbo makes that projection is because removing the individual mandate. >> right, of course. [ overlapping voices ] >> i feel like individual mandate is one of the more pernicious parts of the affordable care act. >> i understand that. all i'm asking is whether the president, who said we are going to have insurance for everybody, this bill does not mean insurance for everybody. >> there will be access for everyone. >> but not insurance. access and insurance are different. >> well, coverage -- actual care and coverage...