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As movements grow beyond the anarchist lens of Occupy, they must face hard questions of bureaucracy and cooptation.

Symbolizes all the things you were describing, but you need a leader. you need an alternative leader. even for example in venezuela. but you had that opposition leader. in iran, is it fair to say -- as they used to say about saddam hussein, all the potential opposition leaders are dead or in jail? >> or in exile. yes, i think that's true. in 2009, the protest rallied around the two losing candidates. there was a sense there was an alternative to the president. today, we don't see the -- an organization, a leader, a manifesto, an idea. these are people very diverse political and social position...

Leader. in iran, is it fair to say -- as they used to say about saddam hussein, all the potential opposition leaders are dead or in jail? >> or in exile. yes, i think that's true. in 2009, the protest rallied the green movement protest rallied around the two losing candidates. there was a sense there was an alternative to the president. today, we don't see the -- an organization, a leader, a manifesto, an idea. these are people very diverse political and social positions who have come together because they want private freedoms. they want personal freedoms. they're not yet giving us an alterna...

Many times in the interim i have encouraged republicans to duplicate your model. they did it this year for the first time in 28 years. i don't know why they waited so long. it's very comprehensive. it gives them a positive agenda, alternative vision to take the country. i like the fact that they sign their name to it and we can hold them accountable. >> well, look. it takes a leader who is strategic like kevin mccarthy. he set out to do this over a year ago, organized several different working groups. it's much bigger, more sophisticated commitment that our contract was. we hadn't been in the ...

These things. that's a very powerful positive alternative to what china is doing with its so-called belt and road initiative. we're demonstrating we have a positive alternative vision for the future and bringing countries along. chris: there's also the continuing controversy over the origins of covid. i know the president has ordered this 90-day review of u.s. intelligence on what we know but one assumes if we knew anything, we would already know it. and i guess the more important question is, what is the president prepared to do unilaterally, not through the w.h.o., which has already been sti...