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Order that was constructed on the collapse of the soviet union. >> that certainly is the danger. we're joined by ann applebaum, an's teamed author of books democracy related. what does this is a about his bigss on ukraine and do you think the biden administration's pushback has been strong enough to deter him to date? >> so to be very clear and to echo susan, it's extremely dangerous the language that he uses and he has been using it for some time because of course there's no logical reason why russia should invade ukraine. ukraine does not threaten russia. nato does not threaten russia. nato ...

To ann applebaum. she reports on autocratic leaders from hungary to turkey to poland. >> one of the strangest things for me in my career has been the sudden realization that these are exactly the kind of things that you see very often in other parts of the world. >> the number of countries where democracy is failing or autocracy growing is now the highest it has been since the end of the cold war. one reason why? >> during the cold war, the united states presented itself as the leader of the democratic camp. >> mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall. >> and that was something that bound together d...

Joining me now is ann applebaum. and malcolm nance, intelligence an less and author of "they want to kill americans." thank you both for being here. ann, i want to start with you on this. your piece is fascinating. i -- oh, we don't have ann yet. let me go to malcolm first. let me play joe biden tonight, and he was asked whether or not he would send u.s. troops to ukraine. take a look. >> what scenarios would you put american troops to rescue and get americans out? >> there's not. that's a world war. when americans and russians start shooting at each other, we're in a very different world. >> ...

Just going to walk in here and jump into this city with airborne forces or commandos, they're talking essentially a war that will go for years and turn into an insurgency. they'll never hold it. >> and ann, we have you on the phone now. let's talk about that. because it seems sort of -- almost like nationally suicidal for vladamir putin to think that he can pull off with ukraine what the old ussr couldn't do in afghanistan. it doesn't seem logical. but you write in your piece, you know, this idea that you have this cleptocrat in vladamir putin. if ukraine became what it wants to be, a normal, ...

>> have you told him that? >> yes. >> you've told him to -- that americans will be a line that they can't cross? >> i didn't have to tell him that. i have spoken about that, he knows that. >> malcolm, you are in ukraine at this moment. first of all, there is this sort of now call for everyone to get out of ukraine, so let us know if and when you're planning on doing that. but what do you make of this sort of standoff between putin and the west? because on the one hand, it could in theory be a kim jong-un, he's trying to get attention, okay, he's gotten attention, he stands down, what is your r...