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Flipflop, flipflop strategy here. it's a real like kind of fundamental concern. >> it's a character issue here. politicians change their minds all the time. in fact, we should respect and trust a little more a politician who will change his or her mind on a core issue. >> if they've learned something. >> abortion, climate change, immigration, gay rights. >> evolving on marriage equality. >> health care. but all of them? that's the problem with mitt romney. he has changed his position on all of those issues. how can you possibly trust that that person who has done all those things, once they ge...

In the wrong place and she admitted afterwards that her on the fly fact checking was wrong, that mitt romney was mainly right. so, the governor did have to handle but he did handle them both well and i think he put the facts on the table, that the economy is the big issue, and in terms of foreign policy, it's not just national security and foreign policy associated with libya but it now has become a character issue in terms of the white house ao*p's handling it. martha: do you think these two gentlemen at base of it don't like each other very much? it was pretty feisty out there. >> it's more ...

Personally affected each of your lives? >> if the question -- if -- maybe i will get it wrong, are you suggesting that if somebody has means that the national debt doesn't affect them? >> well, what i'm saying -- >> not sure i get t help me with the question, i will try to answer it. >> you know people who have lost their jobs and lost their homes? >> uh-huh. >> well, i have been governor of a small state for 12 years. i will tell you how to has affected me. in my state, when people lose their jobs there's a good chance i will know them by their names. when a factory closes, i know the people ...

Character issue? we are not here just playing gotcha, once your start seeing this pattern, does this become a character issue for ryan in the campaign? >> i think they can use it. they got nominal traction out of it. but i think what's more important, more dangerous the fact there are a lot of americans who saw that speech and took it at face value. just believed it and now it is -- unfortunately for the president, incumbent upon him in house own speech to really go after those troops to talk about what he has been able to do in the last four years to set the record straight. because most peop...

Continue dog the campaign? kevin madden joins me now off the record. welcome back. you've lost a few pounds. what are they doing to you out there? this is the campaign diet. >> a lot of coffee, lot of jet fumes. >> well, not sure how healthy a lifestyle it is. >> we're having fun out there, at least. >> i know you're having fun. not so much fun on the tax issue. how does he put this to rest? why did he open up on it yesterday after you stopped, did a press conference to talk about medicare, you had the white board, and then he answers 13%. do you think 13% is going to be the solution? >> look,...