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and i have a programming note that it is just for you. it's one of your favorites -- of kurt anderson is going to be joining us this hour. and just for you, i saved him for last. so, you can get home and turn on the tv, and -- >> and still make it! >> there he will be and i'm going to offer him a theory to take as you will. and that is, that if you think that rudy giuliani has changed from some previous good version of rudy giuliani, you have not been paying attention -- >> you have not! >> i read some old spy martin magazine in kurt andersen's honor about rudy giuliani in 1990. and ...

joining us this hour. and just for you, i saved him for last. so, you can get home and turn on the tv, and -- >> and still make it! >> there he will be and i'm going to offer him a theory to take as you will. and that is, that if you think that rudy giuliani has changed from some previous good version of rudy giuliani, you have not been paying attention -- >> you have not! >> i read some old spy martin magazine in kurt andersen's honor about rudy giuliani in 1990. and he's the same dude at his he was then. i can't wait for your conversation with him. >> we are going to be showing pic...

We were covering him in spy magazine in the mid 1980s, when he was a u.s. attorney, -- u.s. attorneys job in america -- new york. as you say, he was potentially political, as you say, even then. not only did he do that absurd photo op of the coke by, with alfonse d'amato, who was his political patron, but he invented those studies, or certainly made it his signature, of the perp walk, of, for the cameras, making accused criminals, not convicted criminals, of course, a walk in front of the cameras for the stunt -- that was all there. he was also -- i mean, he was a strange man. there is a sort ...

America went haywire. we kurt, i only wish jimmy breslin were still with us to join us tonight. we could both cede our time to him. the giuliani story is a lot crazier than people realize, beginning a lot sooner than they realize. >> absolutely. we were covering him in spy magazine in the mid 1980s, when he was a u.s. attorney, -- u.s. attorneys job in america -- new york. as you say, he was potentially political, as you say, even then. not only did he do that absurd photo op of the coke by, with alfonse d'amato, who was his political patron, but he invented those studies, or certainly made it...