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Alex Wagner Tonight

really urge that administration to see the dangers of ukraine flagging a losing territory and inspiring other regimes to advance. >> the articulation that colonel vindman had, it just looks like we are not serious. this is obviously, when you work at the national security council, this is a very important issue. the idea is when donald trump weakened nato, it is not that he actually did anything, is that he sort of said, we are not that serious about this. you need to do this, we may not be around, it is the implication that we are not going to be solid partners to you. you and i have talked to world leaders who were very concerned about this, they do think that if they have to make a determination that the united states is not serious and they start strategizing about their worldview differently. >> yeah, that's right. let me try to be very specific about this. because this began to get worse in the obama years, where it

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Alex Wagner Tonight

or the past year. i fear that we may be alert to the dangers at home, that seems to be the pattern in the election in 2020, 2022, likely to play it down in 2024. but we are not sufficiently focused on threats abroad, and we are not sufficiently focused on the fact that russia keeps marching forward, its relationships with other authoritarian regimes get tighter, and we are in for a, very very difficult year at home, and abroad. >> ben, what colonel vindman just said i think is interesting. the threats have proliferated. the world is just fundamentally more dangerous place than it was four years ago, and what happens, or what we do, not just what happens in ukraine, what america does, how america leads in ukraine is something that not just our allies are worrying about, and paying attention to, but more importantly, perhaps our adversaries. >> yeah.

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Alex Wagner Tonight

that could lead to threats and other countries including nato countries in eastern europe, but it is also about putin wanting to send a message about which way the world is going. is the world going in the direction of people like vladimir putin? a world without law, a world without rules, a world in which -- or is it the world that will stand up for some principal other than -- that is what ukraine is really about. so this is about our domestic policy more than anything else. so if we are one of the dominoes that falls, and donald trump returns to power, not only is ukraine finished, they will be cut off by the u.s. assistance, not only will europe be threatened by u.s. expansionism, but they will be plenty of other democracies in parts of europe that might be poised to seize the momentum and get elected themselves, and we could be looking at a very different and more dangerous world today in a few years. >> colonel vindman, i remember in the early days of the war, there were speculations from a lot of intelligence agencies

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Alex Wagner Tonight

intelligence sharing, logistical support, these are not expensive, big ticket items. these are small policy changes that the administration could take on its own, and it just has refused to do that and we really urge that administration to see the dangers of ukraine flagging a losing territory and inspiring other regimes to advance. >> the articulation that colonel vindman had, it just looks like we are not serious. this is obviously, when you work at the national security council, this is a very important issue. the idea is when donald trump weakened nato, it is not that he actually did anything, is that he sort of said, we are not that serious about this. you need to do this, we may not be around, it is the implication that we are not going to be solid partners to you. you and i have talked to world leaders who were very concerned about this, they do think that if they have to make a determination that the united states is not serious and they start strategizing about their

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Alex Wagner Tonight

this is both about the expansionist agenda of russia, that could lead to threats and other countries including nato countries in eastern europe, but it is also about putin wanting to send a message about which way the world is going. is the world going in the direction of people like vladimir putin? a world without law, a world without rules, a world in which -- or is it the world that will stand up for some principal other than -- that is what ukraine is really about. so this is about our domestic policy more than anything else. so if we are one of the dominoes that falls, and donald trump returns to power, not only is ukraine finished, they will be cut off by the u. s. assistance, not only will europe be threatened by u. s. expansionism, but they will be plenty of other democracies in parts of europe that might be poised to seize the momentum and get elected themselves, and we could be looking at a very different and more dangerous world today in a few years. >> colonel vindman, i remember in the early days of the war, there were speculations from a lot of intelligence agencies around the world, including our own, that russia could take ukraine very quickly.

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Alex Wagner Tonight

or the past year. i fear that we may be alert to the dangers at home, that seems to be the pattern in the election in 2020, 2022, likely to play it down in 2024. but we are not sufficiently focused on threats abroad, and we are not sufficiently focused on the fact that russia keeps marching forward, its relationships with other authoritarian regimes get tighter, and we are in for a, very very difficult year at home, and abroad. >> ben, what colonel vindman just said i think is interesting. the threats have proliferated. the world is just fundamentally more dangerous place than it was four years ago, and what happens, or what we do, not just what happens in ukraine, what america does, how america leads in ukraine is something that not just our allies are worrying about, and paying attention to, but more importantly, perhaps our adversaries. >> yeah. i think that we are living through a phase of

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Alex Wagner Tonight

here at home but also around thd world. joining me now is the t retirede united states army lieutenant colonel and former director of european affairs at the national security council, alexander vindman. with us tonight ben rodes, deputy nationaln security advir under president obama and co-host of "pod save the world." thank you for being here tonight. colonel vindman, when you and i started talking about ukraine years ago after you so bravely reported on thatso phone call i which donald trump tried to shakedown the then new president of ukraine, it was about our allies. it was about european safety. it was about curtailing an expense and russia, but it wasn't then centrally about ll democracy, the state of democracy in the world. today it kind of is. we have learned that democracy around the world is fragile and ukraine to some degree is our front line for this. >> that's very true. first, let me start by saying happy new year, start on a positive note.

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Alex Wagner Tonight

that seems to be the pattern in the election in 2020 and 2022 and likely to play it down in 2024. we're not focused on threats abroad. we're not specifically focused on the factif russia keeps marching forward. its relationships with other authoritarian regimes get tighter and we'reit in for a ve difficult year at home and abroad. >> ben, what colonel vindman just said i thinkol is interesting. the threats have proliferated. the world is just fundamentally a more dangerous place than it was four years ago and what happens orea what we do -- not just what happens in ukraine, what americapp does, how americ leads in ukraine is something that not just our allies are worrying about and paying attention to, but more importantly perhaps our bu adversaries. >> yeah, i think that, look, we're living through a phase of authoritarian renaissance of sorts, of the ethno nationalist

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