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Claimed no knowledge of the payments, and this is saying something different. when he says you cannot believe what you hear or see, and he has been contradicted. this is the president of the united states and how he is not being truthful with the american people. so we can't lose sight of all of that. >> no, and the danger of course is that it is baked in the cake. you clearly have a president among other things that is lying. he seems very comfortable suggesting payouts for violence. >> he is like wait, what financing. he is more used to cash payouts. he doesn't want the finance plan. >> and ...

Had knowledge of this hush payment despite his denies in the past. >> the explicit denials before the election, and while in the white houses a well. >> let's bring in john avalon, david gregly, laura coats. i want to start with you. in terms of, obviously, it is stunning to hear these negotiations, it is amazing to hear what michael cohen, how he spoke to donald trump, how he is walking donald trump through all of this. legally what are you hearing? >> one reason it is so stunning is you're hearing attorney-client discussions. there is an effort by rudy giuliani that said we would like the pe...

Secret audio recording between donald trump and michael cohen. we are back with david gregory, so what do we have to pay for this $150? he is putting value on thises investigation. david pecker is the carrier of all of this knowledge and if he gets hit by a truck, where does that knowledge go? we lose control of it, does it not indicate that pmi did something of value for the trump campaign that raises campaign finance -- >> i think it does suggest that, most certainly, he is saying

Public opinion to know whether or not that makes michael cohen look good or donald trump look bad. so what i hear here is the idea of what they spoke about. the contemporaneous knowledge. we didn't know if he really truly knew about the alleges or the ami story trying to compress the story of karen mcdoogle. he said we have to delay the ivana trump divorce papers after that, and whether or not they have to suppress all of the stories they may have in his pact, so it goes against what he has said all along. >> no, although if ami, the company that owns the inquire,

Of the other things. >> be the judge in this, that would be my advice. >> one thing about michael cohen though, this is pretty seedy on his part. i think the president will have a constituency saying -- >> i am totally never hiring him as my lawyer. can we say one more thing, i don't know if hope hicks knew, but when she says we had no knowledge of any of this, that is a lie. >> you and i can debate this forever. >> the candidate is the campaign. he knew. >> i'm not as upset about that part at him saying it is "totally untrue." that part i think is