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And a former federal prosecutor and former assistant u.s. district attorney. let's start first with what rudy giuliani said. there was no discussion of michael flynn. that may be the only workable defense strategy, rather than get into, i didn't say that. just, oh, no, we never discussed it. >> it is probably the best strategy for him, but it is too little too late. even giuliani has gone on tv. trump has acknowledged there was conversations but tried to explain them away. this is what happens with everything that comes out with them. you have this evolution where it starts with no, it didn't ...

Lot of poor people looking for federal subsidies. you have jeff sessions looking at ending affirmative action, also looking at extending prison terms. so this is an administration, if you look at it, they were say they're champions of civil rights but people like the naacp say that only in the president's rhetoric and his policies and who he has chosen not to hire, he's not interested in civil rights. >> michael steel, donald trump saying triumphantly that mark burnett called to say there are no tapes. there is something about the claiming that there is no tapes that gives you the feeling that...

Surprised us with its strength and ultimately died in the primary season. and george h.w. bush could never quite recover from that to go on to what was expected by most observers to be the re-election of an incumbent president. >> i think it goes to something that david referenced. that is the challenger finding something that is there. pat buchanan, very much like donald trump in his rise within the party found something that was there and he struck that nerve and he used it as a weapon against the incumbent, george bush. the same is true in 1980 with jimmy carter and senator kennedy. kennedy...

I'm hoping the american public doesn't buy it in this courtroom, the public courtroom. >> and david, so the president has gone from defending the meeting at trump tower during the campaign saying it was all about adoptions to now saying, okay, we all know what it was about. but most -- now they're saying most politicians would have had the meeting. trump used to say every politician would have had a meeting with a foreign power to get dirt on the opponent. and now the president seems to be concerned with nothing other than what did the president know after the meeting occurred. >> earnest hemm...

Families back together. >> well, i'll say this. i have talked to immigration lawyers who are very worried that the parents deported without their kids may never be able to be reunited with their kids or the united states will drag their feet for years and years, and it might be years of drama for these children. the thing i'll say, though, is that the white house has still not put out a list of african-american staffers in the white house. as of right now, it seems there is not one black senior staffer in the white house. they had people that wanted to work for this white house. michael steel ...