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his information. there's not the votes for it. what we dough know is in seven of the last ten negotiations on the debt limit, there's been budget dairy reforms. so 70% of the time, the debt limit gets lifted. there's been a discussion, conversation around and a negotiation about budgetary and policy reforms. that's what needs to happen this time. that's supported by the american people. 65% of the american people believe that you shouldn't raise the debt limit without doing something about the debt. that's what the american people are. cleary that's where we are. i hope that in the n...

Hold these people and their feet to the fire, and a committee that does not allow them to get away with private discussions with staff and with more of these delays. discyou can bring him to the baf justice, and that committee, as john said, is i think very serious. and that's all of them, including cheney and kinzinger, the republicans involved. >> republican participation is crucial, which is why we began the question of how unanimous the approach has been. norm ornstein, zerlina maxwell, john heilemann, the thank you for joining this discussion tonight. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thanks...

These people's feet to the fire and a committee that doesn't allow them to get away with private discussions with staff and with more of these delays. you can bring them to the bar of justice and the committee, as john said, is i think very, very serious. and that's all of them, including cheney and kinzinger, the republicans involved. >> crucial, which is why i began with that question about how unanimous this approach has been so far. norm ornstein, john heilemann, zerlina maxwell, thank you very much for joining this discussion tonight. >> thanks. >> thanks, lawrence. coming up, the chair...