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Well, earlier i spoke to professor kathryn stoner, director of the center on democracy, development, and the rule of law at stanford university. so then what's the point here, why has mr putin manufactured a crisis? and i think the answer is partly his own domestic politics and the example that ukraine sets, it is a flawed, young, raucous democracy, it has an open media, a lively civil society, and that's not what he would like to see in russia. so the demonstration effect of that for his own regime's longevity is highly problematic, and for historical reasons. you mentioned the domestic appea...

Looking as though they would take advantage. this is demonstration effect many of us predicted would happen for a long time. >> martha: mark, do you think putin will topple this government and replace it with one ever his own? where does he go next? that will whet his appetite for more. >> i think he does succeed. he will probably face an insurgency. i don't think he is stopping with ukraine. in his speech on monday night that deranged speech he said all of the former soviet union are not independent countries. that include the baltic states. we never included them in the soviet union but they...

Russia. so the demonstration effect of that for his own regime's longevity is highly problematic, and for historical reasons. you mentioned the domestic appeal or otherwise as to the route he's embarking on. i don't suppose russians want an entrenched conflict on their doorstep, which also will cost, no doubt, billions of dollars, one way or another. but how well equipped financially and in terms of resources do you think russia is now, actually, to engage, if it chooses to do so? so, you're right. most russians, at this point at least, don't seem to want a war with ukraine, but what's being p...

Them, now the pressure needs to step up to stop putin. hit his economy and cronies, hit more, hit hard, hit now. that was a tweet from the foreign minister. joining me now is the deputy national security adviser in the united states, thank you for being with us. hit more, hit hard, hit now. how do you explain to the ukrainian foreign minister why you are not hitting harder now? >> well, john, sometimes i wonder if there is almost a blood lust out there for sanctions unto themselves. we did hit hard yesterday. it was only a demonstration effect. we shut down a gas pipeline. we took out two of t...

Out of ukraine where the country's digital transformation minister confirms to nbc news that a cyber attack is under way against several ukrainian web sites after what president biden called the first tranche of sanctions against russia. he said russia could face tougher sanctions if it continues to take provocative steps. joining me is daleep singh. thank you for being with me. it's not clear who is behind the cyber attack. if it turns out to be russia, could this trigger more sanctions against moscow? >> i would point you to my colleagues on the cyber team. i don't have anything for you at t...