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Can't challenge visa denials or revocations. the claims that the state -- >> sure they can. >> -- is bringing are -- >> sure they can. look, the whole point of the dinn case was dinn, himself, rather, dinn's husband couldn't challenge but she could. and three justices of the court were prepared to throw it out at the first step, but the other six justices were not. they took up the claim. why isn't the state of washington in a comparable position, say as the proprietor of the stay universities, having the same kind of interest that the scholar plaintiffs did in mandell? >> well, the problem is...

Allegations here of bad faith? and doesn't mandell and dinn envision that that's something we would need to look at? >> when reviewing executive order of the president under section 212-f, the review should be confined to the four corners of the document to determine if the document -- if the decision, itself, and the executive order's findings have any -- raise -- have any issues with respect to the standard. and, again, i'm sort of far ahead of our position. this would be if there is a party in the u.s. withstanding to raise their own constitutional claims and there are problems at each step...

Is that this case is different from mandell and dinn and in an important way in that the federal actions here effect longtime residents who have been here and that's not all -- the establishment clause violation effects everyone in a sense. in a sense it -- well, as the court knows, the case law is quite clear that establishment clause violations on their own show irreparable injury and we, of course, believe that that claim is very strong. so just on the merits, the state has shown a strong likelihood of success. the federal government certainly -- the state, i'm sorry, has shown a strong lik...

Theory and i'll get to that. the theory assumes you're asserting the right on behalf of the beneficiary, but there's well-established law that in the immigration context, the sort of third-party interest and the case obannon describes this is not something that can be asserted. i'd also -- >> i suggest -- exerts exactly that. i mean, in kerry versus dinn, the plaintiff was the wife of the person who was excluded so the person who was excluded may not have had any rights he could assert directly but his wife was all allow ed to. >> the state doesn't have the sort of constitutional rights that t...

Recognized that congress and the president share the act -- exclusion of aliens is a fundamental act of sovereignty that the congress and the president, they're within the powers of congress and the president. so our point would be that there's limited review and the executive order -- most limited review in the executive order easily passes that test and that would only be true -- >> what kind of limited review do you acknowledge is appropriate? >> again, we're not acknowledging any review on the facts of this case because of a lot of standing and other problems with the state bringing the cl...