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Has already been very successfully challenged as a truth teller in that hearing, and today he issues a statement denying these accusations, he's issuing that statement after a confirmation hearing has significantly weakened his credibility. >> yes. i agree with everything lisa said and with what you said, and i appreciate your saying that there is no rule that forces this to go forward. we need to have a full investigation. we need to hold off a vote in the senate until there is time for a full exploration of this. if he is innocent, we need to see that. if he is guilty, we need to see that. t...

He could lie about things that don't matter and that's not going to get trump prosecuted for perjury. >> because it's not a material -- >> exactly. it needs to be material. so dowd, by saying that, by saying you're going to end up in an orange jump suit or some version of that, he's saying trump is going to lie about things that have a real impact on the investigation. and what that tells me is that he thinks trump knows things that would have an effect on the investigation. so this whole claim of trump knows nothing about collusion, no conversations with russians, that just doesn't ring true ...

Things that have a real impact on the investigation. and what that tells me is that he thinks trump knows things that would have an effect on the investigation. so this whole claim of trump knows nothing about collusion, no conversations with russians, that just doesn't ring true with what dowd is saying here about the back story. >> we're going to have to squeeze in a break here. mimi rocca and jason johnson, jason is going to come back, thank you both for joining us. coming up, the president who can never find fault with vladimir putin now faces a new test. we have an nbc news exclusive re...

Lawyer. you know, this is unbelievable. by the way, it occurs to me that this really sort of fills in the blanks on what they mean by saying they're concerned about a perjury trap. what they're essentially saying is they can't trust their own client to get to the truth. so they're afraid that he will set a trap for himself. >> i hate to say that duh. everybody knows that, it seems, but maybe the president himself. but you got to get back the what you were saying. what do you mean that you say the president needs a lawyer? so these lawyers aren't of service to him? what should a lawyer be telli...

Service to him? what should a lawyer be telling him? >> well, look, we don't -- i have no idea what these lawyers are telling him. i mean first of all i am skeptical about, frankly, the story that the special counsel is willing to accept some of these -- some of these answers in writing for the reasons laura outlined, and others. it just doesn't ring quite right to me. the reason why you want to interview the person is to assess their demeanor, their credibility, and also to be in a position to ask follow-up questions. if they were going to allow the initial questions to be in writing but then...