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The "new york times" said, a vigorous debate has taken shape among some former law enforcement officials outside the case over whether fbi investigators overreacted in opening the counterintelligence inquiry during a tumultuous period at the justice department. where do you fall in this debate? >> it's interesting because senator graham doesn't say what would we do if a foreign power tried to insert somebody into the presidency. remember, this started before he became president. this investigation started before that. so when you see the firing, that would be the natural actions that you might...

Articulable facts that someone is or may be an agent of a foreign power. that would not be done in a vacuum. that would have gone across the street to department of justice. it would have been approved, and then of course, we know that the doj said, you know what, we need a special counsel inquiry, so now we're seeing what the real origin of this was. now, here's what it doesn't say, joy. it doesn't say that they proved it. it doesn't say that that aspect of the case is still running. and we don't know whether it was a p.i. or a full, so there's some unanswered questions, but it is really sobe...

Given what you have done, given what you have done for a living, in this reporting? >> so, there's a couple of takeaways here. i think it's important to talk about what this reporting says and what it doesn't say. what it says, if accurate, is that the impetus of the special counsel inquiry or what turned into the special counsel inquiry was not necessarily just figuring out the degree to which the russians influenced the campaign but rather now we're faced with kind of a worst case scenario that we have all been talking about, which is the possibility that the president had somehow been co-op...

During a period at the justice department. joining us now is frank, nbc contributor, national security contributor and assistant director of the counter intelligence deputy. frank, thank you for being here. >> thank you, joy. >> what jumps out to you given what you've done for a living in this reporting? >> so there is a couple of take aways here which it's important to talk about when this reporting says and what it doesn't say. what it says, if accurate, is that the special counsel inquiry or what turned into the special counsel investigation was not necessarily just figuring out the degree ...

Here. >> thank you, joy. >> i just want to start by asking you, what jumps out to you given what you've done -- given what you've done for a living in this reporting? >> so there's a couple of takeaways here. i think it's important to talk about what this reporting says and what it doesn't say. what it says, if accurate, is that the impetus of the special counsel inquiry or what turned into the special counsel inquiry was not necessarily just figuring out the degree to which the russians influenced the campaign, but rather now we're faced with kind of a worst case scenario that we've all been ...