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With his ambassador about foreign policy issues? >> very unusual, joy. number one, normally an ambassador doesn't talk to the president of the united states on any kind of telephone call on a routine basis. number two, you have this being done over a nonsecured device that could be readily intercepted by a number of foreign governments but in this case particularly russia given how wired the country of ukraine is by russian intelligence. >> now, you did write in -- you said to "the washington post" -- you quoted by saying the security ramifications are insane. using an open cellphone to commun...

She was very concerned and felt threatened. >> because she was threatened, joy. that's thinly veiled. it's consistent and completely in character with the other kinds of things he said throughout the time he was candidate and served as president. >> let me bring you in there. this has been called dumb watergate. it's been called sort of donald trump being in a mafioso way. the idea he's be on the phone, on a cellphone talking with his ambassador about the very thing he's going to be impeach said for, how unusual -- this is almost a rhetorical question -- for the president of the united states ...

He has all his life acted this way. you know, if you -- that's nothing compared to the "access hollywood" tape and the public seems to shrug. it's -- i don't know the answer to that. >> the white house has responded. you know, the white house which doesn't talk much responded specifically to this. stephanie grisham put out a statement saying, quote, the coward who wrote this book didn't put their name on it because it is nothing but lies. >> look, one of the reasons why we know that this isn't nothing but lies is because of all the people who have been testifying in the impeachment inquiry and...

Do you think that is a wise move for mr. giuliani? >> absolutely. look, rachel, even witnesses in federal criminal investigations? people who have no criminal exposure, it's often wise for them to get an attorney and probably very likely mr. giuliani is not merely a witness. he is at least the subject of the investigation, if not a target. one very interesting thing to look for, any good lawyer, any good white collar criminal defense lawyer will tell her client not to talk. and so one, it will be a measure of how effective this attorney is. and, two, if mr. giuliani really follows that advice,...

A felony campaign finance case that does seem to be linked to the impeachment scandal. these are my friends, lev and igor. cnn is reporting tonight that rudy giuliani, himself, is now looking for his own defense lawyer, potentially in conjunction with this case. do you think that is a wise move for mr. judiany? >> absolutely. look, rachel, even witnesses in federal criminal investigations? people who have no criminal exposure, it's often wise for them to get an attorney and probably very likely mr. giuliani is not merely a witness. he is at least the subject of the investigation, if not a targ...