with his ambassador about foreign policy issues? >> very unusual, joy. number one, normally an ambassador doesn't talk to the president of the united states on any kind of telephone call on a routine basis. number two, you have this being done over a nonsecured device that could be readily intercepted by a number of foreign governments but in this case particularly russia given how wired the country of ukraine is by russian intelligence. >> now, you did write in -- you said to "the washington post" -- you quoted by saying the security ramifications are insane. using an open cellphone to communicate with the president of the united states in a country you can almost take it to bank that the russians were listening in on the call. would you presume that the russians have a recording of the call, a transcript of the call? basically information they now hold over the held of the president of the united states? >> that's absolutely a clear possibility. and i'd be almost embarrassed for them if they weren't