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Of success in the south and then moved on. >> why did we give up, sheryl? >> because it's hard and mainly because of federal courts, the supreme court, sent the signal to lower courts it was time to get out of the business of polices school desegregation, and i think a lot of parents were frustrated with forced busing and the tensions around that. meanwhile, there are strategies that are smarter than forced busing. >> i think the conversation has felt like it's either force erred busing or nothing, because we have this peak moment, this enter intense clash, particularly in boston and around th...

Busing. it's a very political term. most cool kids have ridden busses a long as there have been school buses. only when it became a tool of integration there was a problem. kids ride school buses every day. it's clear that no one is really willing to do that anymore so we have to come up with other solutions. >> do you think part of this has to do if -- the thing that was so interesting to me in new york was what you see is in the absence of a plan to desegregate schools, in the absent of policy agitating for that, there's a million different ways that self-segregation will happen, will happen...

Committed from a sort of moral perspective, from a democratic perspective, to not having separate but equal schools, right? or separate but unequal as the brown holding makes very clear. but do we know from the research, are there tangible benefits that occur to the kids that are attending segregated schools as opposed to desegregated ones? >> absolutely. there's 40 years of research that show that low income and disadvantaged kids do much better in integrated middle class schools. poor kids in high poverty schools on average are two years behind kids in middle class schools. >> wow. >> meanwh...