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Operation research saying he was the e ppitome of a shady wall street bro. did voters not care? did the media not follow up? what is it? >> look, the reality is of course voters cared but getting it in front of the voters was the real challenge. we needed the media to follow up more extensively. i thought the times work was excellent, brilliant investigative journalism. we needed much more attention around these issues. we had a ten-week general election campaign. we raised all the issues and more that you're referring to. the real issue right now -- i know local politicians love to finger poi...

>> right. >> -- the e ppitome of the good aide because he had the most people spinning for him. it is not going to make a difference if steve bannon steps down or jared kushner steps out. although i don't think jared kushner will. what is driving this administration more than most is the character of the president. >> yeah. absolutely. you're right. and yet, kirsten, he does -- there is this constellation of people around, because donald trump doesn't have a deep ideology of his own become incredibly influential. the bannon wing of the good aides/bad aides is interesting. becomes the only unit...