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What it spares him is a substantive defense on the merits. >> even the testimony against him is oftentimes by himself, standing on the white house lawn asking other countries, foreign countries to meddle in our elections. you know, even his own words, right, he's often his own worst enemy. you also wrote that it's his behavior that makes impeachment necessary, also makes for an escape hatch. explain what you mean by that. >> the irresponsible -- the feckless demagogue, the one who engages in the conduct we're talking about, then after having gotten into trouble, if you will, with that behavior...

To create an alternative reality like that. what it spares him of course is a substantive defense on the merits. >> even the testimony against him is oftentimes by himself, standing on the white house lawn asking other countries, foreign countries to meddle in our elections. you know, even his own words, right? he's often his own worst enemy. you also wrote that the behavior that makes impeachment -- it's his behavior that makes impeachment necessary, also makes for an escape hatch. explain what you mean by that. >> the irresponsible -- the feckless demagogue, the one who engages in the conduc...

Because it comes down to motive. yes, it may be true that hunter biden, the investigation could help president trump, but if the overriding concern was a real concern, about hunter biden, and corruption, and there is a connection between burisma, hunter biden and corruption, then the president will argue that my article two power as the chief law enforcement agent for the entire country overrides the fact that i might have also gotten some benefit from investigating hunter biden. i have been saying for a long time, it is an argument that i don't think a lot of people will buy. i see from your ...

Legal jeopardy if he lied to the committee? what happens next? >> potentially, this was always gordon sondland's escape hatch, as he was approaching his testimony, he had to be thinking, well, everyone's going to say that i was involved with giuliani, that i was involved with the president, i was a direct connection, and as he said himself, there was a quid pro quo. so the only option left in a rapidly-winnowing set of options, yes i knew we were investigating corruption, yes i knew we were investigating burisma, but wait a minute, i didn't know burisma meant biden. that is one of his very few...

When he starts to back away from someone in is his guy, his -- the person he put in charge. not his guy in terms they are not long time friends but he put him in the charge of being the ambassador to the european union. that's not small job. it's still predictable that he would do this, like you said. it's also predictable, you're starting to see just every one kind of shifting almost every few days in terms of what the defense is on the ukraine scandal. >> michael steel, is this all about placating senate republicans who look at this and can't stomach it so they are just throwing them anythin...