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Him. so perhaps the richest testing to see how far it would go and how far they can get. because i can't see any scenario in which the united states is pressing to release someone in a third country, and allied country, who's been convicted of murder like this. >> as far as the release of whelan is concerned, do you think the door is closed at this point? there are various legal representatives who say, no, no, no. but whelan's family seems to think -- their quotas, the situation makes hope a little more difficult. do you think that there is the opportunity to negotiate further with putin on t...

Whelan is concerned, do you think the door is closed at this point? there are various legal representatives who say, no, no, no. but whelan's family seems to think -- their quotas, the situation makes hope a little more difficult. do you think that there is the opportunity to negotiate further with putin on this? >> i do. i don't think the door is ever closed and i think frankly like the russians will do transactions. they're very transactional people. they've got viktor bout an exchange for britney griner. they will want to get something in exchange for paul whelan. i think the concerning thi...

And the activity that we have seen so far is not in the espionage category, it's disruptive and destructive activity that could be coming soon. >> jen easterly, i'll do an exclusive sitdown interview with her tomorrow to talk about the cyber threat and the concern here domestically. part of this will air on this show tomorrow. you mentioned this employee of the russian ministry of defense charged with hacking a petrochemical plant in saudi arabia. this raises concerns because it targets safety systems at power plants, right? >> that's the last thing you want to hear that the safety systems at ...