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journalism is not a crime. did these words when you're done with vladimir putin and his henchmen did they help sway them at all in any way? or do you see no movement because of the type of government and grip that putin has on the russian people on the russian apparatus? >> it's exactly right. it's not likely to have a lot of impact. particularly because they knew us is willing to negotiate here. had the administration has a stronger line and said we are willing to negotiate when you're trying to spy for spy swap might argue the trevor read deal is a reasonable deal once they know they get victor boot for brittany griner and now they're getting every incentive to hold folks like evan, like paul for longer until they get a deal. that's the problem with the strategy. to keep taking americans. but potentially what could have
again, a false charge. he has been there four years. this is the first american journalist charged this way since the cold war. >> the russians would like to have some type of spy swap. although, evan was not involved in espionage. he was involved in what good journalists and reporters do. try to find the truth. it's possible the russians might be floating some ideas about this to see whether or not there are individuals in u.s. custody who have been charged and convicted of intelligence gathering, illegally here in the united states. this is something that evan is very unfairly being caught up in this trap by the russians to try to prevent the media from understanding what actually is going on inside of russia. >> john brennan, thank you on all things. good to see you. >> thank you. the border rush. what's being done ahead of an expected surge of migrants heading north.
that's a different category. and both paul whelan in the united states have insisted that he is not a spy for the united states. it just makes it a different kind of negotiation because the russians are maybe seeking other intelligence assets of their own and exchange. they warned to make it into a spy swap and we don't want to acknowledge because we insist it's not the case that paul whelan was involved in intelligence. so the doors never closed. the russians always do transaction. i think part of the sticking point is in which they're insisting on how they categorize paul whelan. >> if they categorize paul whelan as an intelligence asset, they're going to demand a high priority intelligence asset didn't return. the biden white house is under some amount of scrutiny if not outright criticism for the asymmetry of the trade they just made, victor brick for britney griner. brittney griner literally had nothing, no reason to be in a russian penal colony. victor bout did have a reason to be in prison in america, and
whelan is concerned, do you think the door is closed at this point? there are various legal representatives who say, no, no, no. but whelan's family seems to think -- their quotas, the situation makes hope a little more difficult. do you think that there is the opportunity to negotiate further with putin on this? >> i do. i don't think the door is ever closed and i think frankly like the russians will do transactions. they're very transactional people. they've got viktor bout an exchange for britney griner. they will want to get something in exchange for paul whelan. i think the concerning thing in all the reports i've read, alex, is that they are insisting that he be treated in the espionage category. that's a different category. and both paul whelan in the united states have insisted that he is not a spy for the united states. it just makes it a different kind of negotiation because the russians are maybe seeking other intelligence assets of their own and exchange. they warned to make it into a spy swap and we don't want to acknowledge because we insist it's not the case that paul
soviet interrogation and prison and they met soviet representatives in berlin at the meeting of east and west germany at a bridge over a lake that separated the two. pete: they negotiated in the middle and men oturu both sides and once the swap was executed they walked to their own freedom at the same time across that bridge. 1962, height of the cold war, we have the spy planes flying over russia. you know, felt like a bit of legitimate exchange at some level. which brings us to some of the biggest swaps in history in 1985 and 2010 in a separate story. we both had huge intelligence act seizure disorderses attempting to learn more about what the other capabilities were. to include in 1985 called the biggest spy swap in u.s. history