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Column. dahl dahlia, you said the fog machine is something trump defenders want to benefit from. last weekend the gop senator saying i don't know if it was russia or ukraine that interfered in the election. the idea is what? that because nothing is noble, they'll side with trump? is that what they want? >> yeah. we have to remember and caroline knows this better than i do. part of this is a state of mind question. and if what in the end of the day the defense is, it was perfectly reasonable for trump to believe that ukraine interfered in 2016. even if that's untrue, all you need to do is build...

Fog machine, to create confusion to say it's a big ball on confusion, who's telling the truth, where if one were to back away and listen to career officials, people who were called by democrats and republicans who testified to the facts and the facts were really clear, but the republicans are continuing through their sources and resources that they have to create a fog. and i think that's alluring to their benefit. but either way, popular opinion's important, but it's important that we help shape it but not let it dictate whether or not the constitution is a document that we believe in. >> con...

Turned on the recorder and said, mr. giuliani, ihm my name is glenn simpson, i introduced myself. i said would it surprise you if i told you i've never been to ukraine in my life? he said, oh, okay, guess i'll have to look into that. however, i don't think he's ill informed, misinformed or confused, i think he's just not telling the truth. it's just a made up -- it's another made up story designed to provide cover for donald trump. >> he is cranking the fog machine. >> we have just scratched the surface of the story, the entire story's in the new book, crime in progress inside the steele dossi...

You know, two weeks into this? >> you know, like i said, i think there are parallel story lines going on here. i think that the democrats are being pretty methodical in putting a case together here and pretty disciplined in not taking the bait from republicans on the panel. the republicans put jim jordan, who is in certain ways a kind of a very skillful political fog machine, on the committee to kick up a lot of dirt and dust. this whole issue of the whistle-blower that he and nunes keep raising and some of the others, you know, i think feeds the sort of conspiracy theorists, you know, the not...

Been that leaky of the underlying mueller materials that they've been able to see. i mean -- >> by the way, we're the reporters. we're trying to get it. we like leaks and you're right. >> call me. we've been tracking this. >> you don't even get a butt dial about it. >> very disappointing. so that makes me believe this grand jury material, even though the house sees it, they may defy history and keep it to themselves instead of sharing it with the public. but of course, having a judge on their side saying that this impeachment inquiry is, in fact, one is really valuable. >> ali, you spent a lot...