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That prigozhin demonstrated to people who are reading telegram channels, who are watching putin on tv, who were in the streets of rostov, a very large and very important city where the headquarters, the southern headquarters of the russian military are -- they were seeing that someone else wields armed power in russia. that's what makes a difference. >> right, yeah, that makes sense. i guess putin lost, i don't know if confidence is the right word, but lost someone that he perhaps trusted a bit with prigozhin's actions. do you think more than ever, putin is wondering just who he can trust righ...

Call russia a hard target for intelligence gathering. i want to read to you what one of the sources familiar with this kind of latest effort said to us at cnn that i think gets at the challenge of this dynamic. this official said to us that everything that the u.s. has in term of putin's mental state in the realm of conjecture because the decisions and statements don't seem to be making sense. for years, decades, putin has acted according to a pretty specific template. so, you know, jim, i think this -- i think what this source is getting at is the challenge that intelligence officials have in...

Escalation of this conflict beyond what it already is, brie. i can't get inside putin's mind to figure out what his next step is going to be. he chlearly wants to control ukraine. he's going after major population centers and trying to move on kyiv. what he may be thinking about in addition to that, we can't know. what we don't want to see is an escalation of this conflict, certainly not in the nuclear realm, whether nuclear power plants being attacked or nuclear weapons being used. there is no reason for that. he still has options available to him, yes, militarily, but also diplomatically. th...

By cutting off relations. but i think putin in a way is saying, well, we could rely on more on china economically, militarily, et cetera. our coordination with china could increase. but i think right now this is putin's hard bargaining. he is saying, i'm serious about this. where his bottom line is, i think it basically is don't expand nato. don't come into my neighborhood. don't let ukraine certainly get into nato. and don't bring weapons that threaten russia close to our border. i think that is the bottom line for him. >> they want membership in nato. mike, i want to ask something about the ...

They are worried the rest of europe will give up too much that would allow the baltics to feel less safe. all of that is going on. when they announce that kind of plan, they are talking to baltics, nato allies. i wish theubgd do it now versus waiting until the action begins. but i think that would send a very clear message to putin as well. we haven't quite gotten there yet. i hope that happens >> jill, given putin seems to be testing the biden administration's resolve, do you think biden is being tuff 'n uff to get putin's attention and adjust his calculus? >> actually i do. i think he is bal...