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>> but there were a number of forces at work. >> look at rhode island. look where unions have been the strongest. look at the shuttered factories. i'm not being anti-union here. i'm pro-union. i want factories in connecticut, in rhode island, in massachusetts, across new england reopened. but the jobs from overseas, they're not going there. they're not going there because of work force rules that i think even trump told me were outdated and outmoded. >> is our education system outdated? >> no. >> our union advocacy, is that outdated, how they go about fighting for it? i don't know. that questi...

Before. the rich are getting richer, poor are getting poorer, ceos are getting larger wages, workers are getting smaller wages. do you agree that the unions -- i say like the republican party, they have to reform or they're going to die. >> they are reforming. it's slow. the uaw actually did a fantastic job helping the american automobile industry come back on its feet. they gave in a lot of concessions. i believe the american federation of teachers, i know we differ on this, contributes a lot to education reform. is it as fast as we'd like? no. >> randy's working with chris christie right now...

Freedom. here's another side. unions have played a big role of people having their rights protected, as you well know, to ensure that safety standards are -- >> okay, but that's not answering my question, harold. >> union dues are used for that purpose also. >> but you can't take that money from me if i don't want to give it to you. >> this is all about -- but this is about political purposes. political purposes. so there's a broad set of reasons that these dollars are used for. >> you're still taking it from my pocket and i don't want to give it. >> we're making your workplace better. we're e...

Of having to put a value proposition to workers. >> governor, while i made a similar argument earlier that workers shouldn't be compelled to have to pay from their salary to a union with whom they disagree, i would not go so far as to say what you've just said, which is that this helps unions. i mean, it undermines unions' ability to stay vibrant, right? >> it really leaves it up to the union to decide and innovate as to what their value proposition is. i don't view it as pro or anti-union. unions just need to be responsive to people to step up and deliver value and workers should have that ch...

People didn't forget that. here's the problem. the problem is the free rider problem. in all right-to-work states, if you and i are both working for the same employer and i'm getting a pretty good wage because it's a union job -- >> right. >> -- and you're not paying any dues, you get the same benefits everybody else does. that's not fair. >> is there a way to have two different pay scales, a union and a nonunion pay scales? >> practically there isn't. >> because i said it was un-american for a union to compel me to pay union dues if i didn't want to. i think it's also un-american for me to fr...