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Cut education, we can't cut transportation. i mean, harold, what do you want to cut? i mean i agree with david gergen, david, i think you're right, if there's going to be a deal, republicans are going to have to agree to some cutbacks in defense programs. i think that should be on the table. but there's no deal if liberals say, we can't cut anything. >> harold? >> i think we can cut some things. but i think the main -- where you and i disagree, steven, is on what the main problem with the economy is what i see as a lack of private-sector investment. i think they're being crowded out by the pub...

Given the volatility we see in the world. >> harold, 30 seconds to you. give me some sense of handicap this for us, do you think the government shuts down next friday? >> i think it may. because even though both sides think it's more adventurous to reach a compromise. that's in theory. in practice, i don't know what it is they're going to dpree on. if republicans insist on cuts, which the administration is not willing to make, this could be like the start of world war i, nobody wants it to happen, but it happens. >> if you don't do something specifically to avoid it, that's one thing. saying y...

Journal." stephen, congress has gone to the wire in many cases and averted a shutdown. what does a deal look like to keep the lights on in washington beyond friday? >> in most cases, the doomsday scenario is averted. but you remember 1995, and 1996, when we did have a government shutdown and that was that famous budget standoff between bill clinton and newt gingrich. so it could happen, ali and nobody wants it to happen. although neither side is taking steps to avoid it from happening. 23 it happens, it means that all the nonessential functions of government stop operating. >> and the one thin...

Telling republicans, you go first. and the republicans saying no, no, mr. president, you go first, you're the president, you're the leader and both of them are trying to avoid you know, getting, being the first one out of the gate, to get their heads above the trenchline. they know how many shots they're going to take. but it is not leadership. when you try to duck as both sides are now doing, you cannot call it leadership. and the country is going to pay a big price for this unless they get serious. now i have to say, ali, if one side can come out of this victorious, if the republicans were t...

Side, is the left not giving the president permission to do what he needs to do, including compromise and tackling these entitlements programs? >> well i think there's very little public sentiment. if you just noted, ali, for cuts to social security and medicare. and particularly on the democratic side. these are programs that the democrats originated and have always been identified with. and many of us on the progressive part of the democratic party think it would be hugely injurious to the economy and the people's purchasing power, things like that if you, if you made any serious cuts to thi...