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Stable, long lasting permanent peace. and that is a very large ask from -- but if we make that our goal and then work backwards, which arms do we need to give the ukrainians in order for them to push out the troops -- what kind of final settlement will achieve what we wanted to achieve? we are not looking for a second best outcome. we are looking for the best outcome. if we start to think like that, that will help guide us and our policy from now on. >> and there is complexity when we talk about the west and the u.s., obviously. and volodymyr zelenskyy was appealing very directly to the united...

Go through the roof. then we are talking about nato countries, including the united states, having to respond. having to retaliate and defend their nato partners. we've heard secretary blinken, vice president kamala harris and the president say that every inch of nato territory will be defended. and that strike, today, in the early morning hours, was only about 20 miles from the polish border. so, you can see how these things could, even a mistake, even as slightly off target strike, could come perilously close to a nato country and bring all of nato into this conflict. very, very dangerous ti...