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Statement of a party opponents. i think we are long past time to play these games of finding people who will certify they've returned all the stolen property and move into the indictment phase. >> lately in washington, it feels like there's been a lot of urgency. it's not lost on me that it's the weekend and yet, the january six committee is meeting tomorrow for a rare weekend meeting. charles, they will decide whether to make criminal referrals. what exactly does a referral entail? >> well, the referral basically is going to give the doj even more of a boost in terms of that need or the permi...

American public can at least come to the view that the democrats had a good case to proceed, then i think we have victory there. and an impeachment is like an indictment. i'm a former prosecutor. this is not the trial. this is the indictment phase. we just have to have probable cause that we believe the president engaged in this misconduct and i think the evidence is overwhelming that he did. >> it seems to me part of the strategy from the beginning is essentially to call the process itself illegitimate. right? that has been the argument both from the white house and your colleagues in the rep...

Are ton the fence. i think we also have to convince the american public that democrats have a good case. whether or not you agree with our ultimate conclusion if the democrats can come to the conclusion democrats have a good case to proceed i think we have a victory there. and an impeachment is like an indictment. i'm a former prosecutor. this is not the trial. this is their indictment phase. we just have to have probable cause that we believe the president engaged in this misconduct and i think the evidence is overwhelming he did. >> it seems to me the strategy has been from the beginning is ...

So it's really a great thing in some ways, but in other ways, it's a disgrace. it's a disgrace for our country. >> reporter: so here's the deal. the impeachment process is moving from the fact-finding phase to the prosecution or the indictment phase. and when the house voted -- when they formalized the impeachment inquiry and established rules of the road, it was known to both democrats and republicans on the hill, but also the president and his lawyers that this phase was when the white house would be invited to mount a defense, to call witnesses, to prevent evidence, if they so chose. so rig...

Indicted. and will go to trial in the senate to see if any republicans have the guts to vote to remove him. joining me now is glenn kirschner, msnbc legal analyst and former federal prosecutor. i always think it's important to reframe impeachment as an indictment because i think a lot of people confuse impeachment with removal. it's just an indictment. let's pretend it's a criminal indictment. when it goes through a grand jury, does the prosecution have to at that point approve guilt? >> no. at the indictment phase, the only showing in criminal law in order to bring a criminal charge against s...