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U.s. spies, that in my very first book i wrote, "the puzzle palace," i wrote how the u.s. was doing this -- the predecessor to the nsa was doing this in 1921 in france spying on a meeting of europeans in paris. so it's been going on for a very long time. what is very unusual is not that these revelations have come out, because revelations like this come out every now and then. it is that you actually have the revelations backed up by actual inside nsa documents. >> well, i want to come out to the panel. michael, the lexington herald leader had an interesting inin. "snowden could have taken his...

With it. >> i think the obama administration would disagree that they tortured bradley manning. >> but they tortured him. i mean made him stand naked for a year in a cold cell. >> they would disagree. they are competent to reach into our lives at every moment or incompetent and can't handle it. >> they can't keep it secret. james bamford, one sort of exit question. the claim on the nsa side is that they are trying to really stop catastrophic potential attacks on our infrastructure, et cetera. can you explain what it is that they say they are protecting against? >> well, they're trying to prote...

Important part of our democracy. and finally if the obama administration requests that snowden get extradited back to the u.s., how will this ever impact future whistle-blowers? joining me now two men who worked for the nsa for decades and who thaims blew the whistle. kirk and bill are with us. guys, welcome backham combined you guys have 70 years' experience. am i right on that? who has 40? one has 40, one has 30. >> i was close to that. 37 years. >> almost 70 years' experience between the two of you. >> yep. >> in your case, you worked, as i understand it, on a program called thin thread tha...

Essentially misinforming congress. i will tell you i've seen a number of these cabinet members coming forward that they serve on. i've never seen them come with the intention of informing congress. it should be here's the open book, we're doing the right thing, we want to inform you. instead it's divert, it's on fuss kay, it's run out of clock. i've really run out of patience with this administration and i've birthday lied to in classified setting in the past. if this is the case, it's not the first time. >> thank you both for being with us. we'll check in with the mother of 10-year-old sara...

Important part of our democracy. and finally if the obama administration requests that snowden get extradited back to the u.s., how will this ever impact future whistle-blowers? joining me now are two men who worked for the nsa for decades and who thaims blew the whistle. kirk and bill are with us. guys, welcome backham combined you guys have 70 years' experience. am i right on that? who has 40? one has 40, one has 30. >> i was close to that. 37 years. >> almost 70 years' experience between the two of you. >> yep. >> in your case, you worked, as i understand it, on a program called thin thread...