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Gadhafi. what i would like to see is more energetic diplomacy on that end, while we look at these other military options. but they're problematic. people have to fight and win their own freedom. they want to fight and win their own freedom. if we start getting involved militarily in some way, it makes that more complicated. there's more we can do diplomatically. >> it does seem, bob, military involvement from outside changes the dynamic and allows gadhafi to have a different conversation with the world. in terms of intelligence terms, i've heard you say libya is a black hole. what do you mean?...

To have a different conversation with the world than he's currently having. in terms of intelligence terms, i've heard you say libya is a black hole. what do you mean? >> it's a black hole because it was very, very difficult to collect intelligence, and we tried very hard over the years, going back to '69 and the libyan exiles weren't particularly reliable. we haven't had an embassy there for that long. it's a totalitarian state. people are afraid to talk. contacts with libya were with one man, who wasn't particularly reliable, he was loyal to gadhafi. and then you had this inner circle, you k...

Zone are directed against the humanitarian crisis, the killings going on. those won't stop as long as gadhafi is in power. so as bob baer says, the objective is to get rid of gadhafi. what i would like to see is more energetic diplomacy on that end, while we look at these other military options. but they're problematic. people have to fight and win their own freedom. they want to fight and win their own freedom. if we start getting involved militarily in some way, it makes that more complicated. there's more we can do diplomatically. >> it does seem, bob, military involvement from outside chan...