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Have in what used to be foreign countries with no rule of law where the white house is dictating who gets prosecuted and who doesn't get prosecuted. to me, the kinds of reforms that matt mentioned about criminalizing issues, having much greater transparency in reporting to congress, would be i think a better way to go about it. >> roselyn, would you say we know a lion's share of what happened between december 14 and january 20th, or do you think this is the proverbial tip of the iceberg? >> maybe someone in between those two. we know quite a bit. but i think that there is a lot left to learn. ...

Stay and done what jeffrey rosen did. it's hard for me, given his history, to really give a lot of credit to bill barr. i don't think we know the answer. i think matt hit the nail on the head saying that the real issue here is what kind of reforms we're going to have and what kind of transparency we're going to have. one of the things that your question raises is, a, we don't know the facts yet and all of them. and it really is for garland to step up and for congress to step up, because the public is entitled to know. the second is, everything you are describing is something that is permissibl...

Need to make decisions about what the reforms ought to be. as a starting point, reforms at the justice department when doj should get involved in election contests that need to be considered. we need stronger rules about the contacts between the white house and justice department. there's a memo on that it's binding policy. but it tells you who can talk to who at each building. it doesn't tell you what they can and can't talk about. we should look at trying to wall some of those off. all the strongest intentional reforms in the world at doj won't stop a future president or future officials at ...

States. they had more of a chance of succeeding, would they have pushed the way the president wanted to? it's a hard question to answer. i think what all the rest of us are to look at going forward is what kind of reforms we would put in place, internal doj reforms and changes to the law we need to make sure that a justice department isn't put under this type of pressure by a president ever again. >> andrew, i'm very -- i feel like we don't know the full extent of bill barr's decision making here. you think he resigned, or do you think he was asked to resign? i can't figure out if whether he d...