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Going to use this, that you use the whole thing. it's like a good cop/bad cop argument. you've got a bad cop and the point is to get the good guy to talk to the bad guy. it's not surprising to me that there's a food fight now because what's happened is, the democrats in that committee have gone back and said, it doesn't look like a lot of stuff was gotten by the bad cop and they are saying, no, we think it was necessary to get him to talk to the good cop. that's the explanation, as clear as i can -- as i understand it as a u.s. citizen. >> so. pa, there you have james mitchell talking about wh...

You're going to have to have sleep deprivation, constant questioning, you're going to have to be at them. you have to find a fine line where we don't violate the all the norms of morality. but at the same point -- >> i want to interrupt you. do you have evidence that any of those stronger techniques you're talking about, the waterboarding, the sleep deprivation that they did in fact lead to information that got osama bin laden? >> i haven't read the specific files, because i was involved in the invasion and then i was off doing other things around the world. but from a numb of my associates th...