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You have intent. and when they're looking at obstruction of justice, the intent is the tricky part. can a prosecutor find evidence of corrupt intent? so impeding and doing acts with bad cause. maybe this fits into the puzzle. it certainly fits into our understanding. magg maggie haberman, whatever you were doing, get back to it. thanks for talking to us tonight. perfect. that really helps us to set the stage for tonight's great debate. cnn contributor, former obama white house ethics czar norman eisen and cnn legal commentator, former trump white house lawyer james schultz. gentlemen, thank yo...

Justice. there are the facts and those are the questions. let's take this on with cnn legal commentator james schultz. he was in the white house counsel's office when this was going on. and just so you understand, jim believes that his work in the white house counsel's office -- he's got an ethical obligation not to talk about what he knew or didn't know, and that's fine because we have plenty to chew on with just the facts as they are here. so, jim, one point that you want to make is a fair point and a true point, so let's get it out of the way. those who are saying he tried to -- he ordered ...

Criminal intent. you talked about -- you said it succinctly earlier. they have to have criminal intent. they have to corrupt intentions. >> right. they'd have to be doing it to disrupt that effort to bring them to justice, right? >> correct. correct. >> and that will be the question, and it is only one man's reckoning that we get of it, but it is the man. it's the president we're talking about. james schultz, i appreciate your mind on this matter, especially on a friday night. thank you for doing it. so some lawmakers say mueller now especially needs to be protected from the president, that ...

Even if it has nothing to do with collusion or coordination with the russians? >> that's absolutely true. it has to have arisen from the course of his investigation. >> so, for example, if there's a money laundering issue that is not directly related to the collusn issue, he can go ahead and investigate that? >> he could although i wouldn't be so quick to assume they're not related. this may be the source of links to russia that they'll eventually uncover. think back -- it was under a different statute but think back to the ken starr investigation that ended up with a sexual relationship with ...

To be held accountable. but we don't know the answer to that question yet. that's why the interview has to happen. there's a lot of evidence, however. >> james schultz, i love the passive indifference on your face right now. i want to know your take on what counselor eisen is saying, and i also want your take on how you would prep the president in terms of is this an interview that he takes? probably yes. under what circumstances? what's your double take here? >> so i agree with norm in that this is coming to a speedy conclusion and that bob mueller is looking to conclude the obstruction porti...