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Indict a ham sandwich. getting a conviction in a court with a jury with a higher standard is much more difficult. based on what you have seen in this indictment, do you think any of the charges might be too overreaching? >> i wouldn't say overreaching. i would just say that it's going to be difficult. you've got 19 defendants. one of whom is the former president of the united states. many of them come with varying levels of publicity and sentiment behind them. and there's a principle called jury nullification. you're always concerned when you're indicting celebrities no whaert what the evidenc...

That. so of course he will use that. that will be a theme. i think he the more prevalent theme should is go to trial before the election, which of course they are trying not to for his defense lawyers, will be jury nullification. in other words, hey, jury, you've heard all of this, you've heard all of the evidence, but vote with your heart. let the man go. don't vote with the evidence. jury nullification will be a common theme along with the first amendment. >> appreciate the conversation. i know that it is a little after 2:00 on the west coast there. so i'm amazed by your energy at this time....

To kill somebody or to rob a bank. you have a right to say those words, but they have criminal implications because of the actions that you are undertaking or causing an agent to undertake. so i just didn't think the first amendment is going to fly, and it's not going to fly with a judge like judge chutkan. i think it's hard to see that that will even be allowed to be presented to a jury because it's really a form of jury nullification. it may be something that's rhetoric, as you say, for the public now, but i don't see that flying in a court of law. >> one of the things this does, this indict...

President who are consistently defending donald trump, is there a larger danger here in dismissing essentially a legal process that has not played itself out? >> well, first of all, he's innocent till proven guilty. absolutely. but the charges are so serious. so to say that a process crime, that obstructing justice is not a serious crime, that trying to destroy evidence wanted by a federal grand jury is not a serious crime, you can say this person is innocent until proven guilty. however, the charges are very serious and the facts if they are true are very serious. so to just sort of pooh-pooh...

Nullification. so he's hoping he'll get that -- defense attorneys always say i want that one juror, that one juror who will not listen to the law as instructed by the court, who will not follow the facts, and has come in there and has decided you know, whether he's guilty or not, i'm going to vote not guilty. or if i believe he's not guilty i'm going to vote guilty. you don't want that jury either. so i think it's really about jury nullification. >> catherine christian, always great to have you here. brendan buck, you as well. thank you guys. appreciate it. and still ahead, nbc goes one on o...