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Wringing and anxiety about whether or not she is a liability, but the folks who really know her and have brought her out have found her to be an extraordinarily effective surrogate. the point is, you can't -- it's different for a woman than it would be for a male vice president. >> yes. >> she has to be given the chance to turn it around. the only way to do that is to lean into her as the surrogate on the issues she's most comfortable with, on the issues where she is passionate. to your point, where she can be unshackled and you let kamala be kamala. it is different. she's the first. there has...

That is something i think hillary could have done more of. you can't blame her. it was the system she was operating in. every candidate has to learn their lessons in their own time. i hope kamala learns hers in time for the '24 election. >> coco-founder and ceo of all together, lauren leader, thank you so much. eugene, you cover the vice president. i know there has been frustrations from the west wing about the vice president's performance to this point on some issues, but they think she's found her voice on a few things, when president biden acknowledged he is not comfortable on messages like...

Will throw their weight behind joe biden. >> martha: why do you think it is going to be biden? >> i just think when you think of joe biden you think of obama. and i think as a democrat the people feel -- have a connection with obama. so they have a connection with that administration and joe biden has come directly from that i would like to see a ticket beteni think the ae are ready for a female. >> martha: so what's the dream ticket foreeach of you before we go? >> i am about joe and kamala as well. i would like to see kamala be president and joe be vice president. >> martha: she said the sam...