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murray that giuliani was notified by prosecutors that he would be a target in this investigation. as you noted, this is the fulton county investigation into donald trump and his allies' actions after he lost the 2020 election in that state. now, he was already, giuliani, scheduled to testify in front of a grand jury after being subpoenaed on wednesday. his lawyers now say that he is still going to do so, but they would not answer questions on whether or not he would invoke the fifth amendment, again, because he's now been told officially that he is a target of this investigation. at ...

And said no i'm not gonna do it. when he said he wouldn't do it the president went out and tweeted that he said he would do it. >> i might need some ice skates, because these two agreed wholeheartedly. hail has burst open. >> [laughter] >> climate change, fyi. >> the first amendment argument, as you said, is perhaps unlikely to work in the court of law. but in the court of public opinion, especially in republican primary, i see it being very potent. >> why? >> if you look at the other things he's accused of, let's take the mar-a-lago documents, donald trump is always positioning himself as i a...

Hell has frozen over. take notes, climate change, of why i. >> the first amendment argument, as you've said, is perhaps unlikely to work in a court of law. but in the court of public opinion, especially in a republican primary, i see it being very potent. >> why? >> here's why. if you look at the other things he's been accused, of let's take the mar-a-lago documents, donald trump is always positioning himself as i am the one standing between the deep state, the democrats, and you. they really want to come after people like you. on the mar-a-lago documents, they want to prevent people from keep...

Serious jail time here, and the charges are very simple, and very clear, involved against carlos de oliveira, it involves lying to the fbi. the other one, against both of them, removing boxes and concealing information. so, that is on tape, so, going back to the nixon times, that's on tape -- so, it's very hard for them to avoid conviction in my opinion. but whether they'll ultimately turn, i don't know. >> catherine, i wish everybody read the indictment, because you can see the language in there, you can see the transcripts of the recording. carlos de oliveira was asked questions in an invest...

Deeply significant because it refutes the statements from trump where he said he declassified everything which by the way, it's not true that he can declassify things from his mind, it is incredibly significant evidence for prosecutors who would need to prove that trump intended to keep classified documents, that he knew he was doing it and that he knew he was keeping documents that he shouldn't have had when he was president. you can't overstate the significance of that evidence. >> well, and joyce, how big a deal is this? >> it's incredibly important, and i think ken identifies the reason. t...