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To take account of the statistics justice breyer was offering, the number of new cases of omicron covid a day, are you telling us there's nothing that can be done about it? i felt it was kind of a turning point actually the way he behaved on the bench in that argument. >> so interesting getting that view from you. jeff, i'm just going to tell you, i've got 40 seconds for you. >> as linda was suggesting, justice breyer was not a notorious rbg. he was not a sexy justice. he only of late has gotten so frustrated -- it's really a measure of how far the country has come and how much the institution...

Institution. his work in the senate, for senator kennedy, who really was his sponsor to the supreme court, taught him how congress can work when it did work. it was a time when you agreed when you could and fought only when you had to. he would meet with his counterpart on senator thurmond's staff every week and figure out where they could get common ground. so as a jurist, he brought that background to the court that was a pragmatic sense, how do we make the law work as an institution so that democracy works for the people? the wisconsin case you cited is an example of that. >> jeff, how do y...

Linda, i start with you as someone who follows the court, i have been reading you basically my whole adult life and you know these issues inside and out. let's start with your thoughts on justice breyer's contributions and anything about the way forward. >> yes, so i called justice breyer sort of the last enlightened man in an unenlightened age, and by that i meant someone who really believes in the power of facts, expertise. in his prejudicial life, he was a administrator of law and facts really matter. he finds himself on a court where facts seem to matter less and less. so he did write a nu...

Powerful and comes across to some people as a little cool and sophisticated and aloof but there's a real passion he's brought to the court. you mentioned the death penalty cases, and that's certainly true. but on other things too, on equal protection, definitely, and he's written important -- he's an important voice as the court has moved ever so slightly and now kind of reached a climax to his right. >> jeff, what can you tell us about him and his work? >> i think justice breyer, as linda was suggesting, is literally a throwback to an era where institutions worked. he came up at harvard at a ...

In the record and wasn't totally true was just sprinkled around, which cuts against everything you're taught about court rules? linda first. >> i think he tried as the clip you had earlier suggested, tried to work with everybody, really believed in the power of persuasion, the power pa of logic. just give me the facts, give me the law and i will show you how it adds up. when that didn't work, when there was an increasing gap between where the law should have been leading the court and where the court ended up, i'm share that was an occasion of extreme frustration, and i think the vaccine case ...