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People in trump world wonder is, what is it that's holding manafort up? why is it that he's unwilling to do like gates did and cooperate in that fashion? and we still don't know that. and he's taken a very aggressive approach, particularly on filing these motions, trying to get the government sort of in the same way that devin nunes is to cough up more documents about the investigation, to reveal more, to give them more stuff to go after mueller on. >> and let's speak english here on two counts. number one, there's speculation about a pardon. and, number two, he's not a young man. and if they ...

You don't see him out there doing the things i think most prosecutors would say, hey, that's just not really the way to handle it. >> wow, thank you for that. matt, to back up from other news from today, how dangerous potentially is a former son-in-law to paul manafort? what could he know? >> incredibly dangerous because they had been in business together buying houses in the real estate business. it's one more potential witness against paul manafort in another area. already you have rick gates, who was his partner in his international consulting business, who's prepared to testify against him...

>> still with us? for more, we welcome back to the broadcast guy lewis, a former u.s. attorney who also worked with robert mueller, james comey, and rod rosenstein among others while at the justice department. also here with us in new york tonight, matthew miller, former chief spokesman for the u.s. just department. counselor, i've looked around the room. you're the only former u.s. attorney here. i've got to ask you what about what he just said? can a president be indicted? >> well, i think the justice department has come out after the nixon matter, brian, and then after the clinton matter an...

Else more senior than him like maybe jared kushner or donald trump jr., or he has to hope and wait for a pardon. those are his only options because the weight of the evidence against him is pretty serious. >> yeah, it's not looking good. counselor, i'm going to give you the last word after reading this to you about how they intend to perhaps prep the president for sitting down with mueller. this is from politico. impatient president in several brief sessions over many weeks. giuliani said the briefings would likely begin after trump returns from that june 12 summit in singapore with north kore...

In a piece? and reporters have different answers. it has to do with figures of speech that may be familiar. some reporters adhere to the rule, anyone who was quoted on the record two paragraphs above is the off-the-record source two paragraphs below. forget your own work, of course. do you have any rules of the road in figuring out who leakers are in the news you read throughout the day? >> well, i think one of the more interesting developments of covering this administration, brian, is the way that the leaks aren't always coming from inside the white house but from the peripheral agencies and...