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President's lawyer at the time, john dowd, had discussions with lawyers for flynn and manafort about a pardon last year. these were discussions in which it was broached. so the question is, is that okay in terms of obstruction of justice? can the president use his power of pardon to extend it to folks that are under investigation in something that is related to him? and is this something that sticks in manafort's head as he tries to figure out how to move forward? >> hey, jill, we are still -- we american people -- not used to hearing sarcasm from the american president as we did today. we rea...

The sort. but it was a kind of trolling the mueller effort and reminding especially everyone in his base that this continues -- this cloud continues. >> yeah, absolutely. it was a series of three kind of extraordinary tweets from him. the president's in an interesting position right now because on one hand, he very much feels under siege. you see the rage. you see the frustration coming through in those morning tweets, in the conversations that he's having with people inside and outside the building. i mean he brings up this investigation constantly. giuliani last night described it as kind of...

Administration, he has a theory because of the way the regulations are written, the only way for robert mueller to force the report to be delivered to congress is to propose some action that is overalled by the deputy attorney general rod rosenstein. what that action could be would be to propose an indictment of the president. if the deputy attorney general rejected that proposition, he would then write a report that would be automatically delivered to both the majority and the minority in congress. i don't know that i think that's a likely scenario. that doesn't seem to me, based on what i kn...

Having with people inside and outside the building. i mean he brings up this investigation constantly. giuliani last night described it as kind of a rock on the president's back. he talks about it as this cloud that's haunting his presidency. on the other hand, you also have news from rudy giuliani at least, him saying that mueller's team has assured them that they believe that the president cannot actually be indicted. so you've got kind of these two realms of quite good news for the president, but also a president who is raging. he was supposed to do a press conference today with the secreta...

>> when i ran against them, they were looking for dirt on me every day. i mean that's what you do. maybe you shouldn't, but you do. nothing illegal about that. and even if it comes from a russian or a german or an american, it doesn't matter. and they never used it is the main thing. never used it. they rejected it. if there was collusion with the russians, they would have used it. >> so, counselor, is he right there when he says it doesn't matter if it comes in from a german or a russian or what have you? >> well, i'm not sure i'd agree with the former mayor on that particular point. look, he...