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Oath just in the last few weeks. this is -- and if he testified under oath and lied to the country about it, which is basically what mr. roche is saying, that's relevant to whether he ought to be on the supreme court. >> michael? i mean, roche directly saying judge kavanaugh lied under oath with, you know, allegations of heavy drinking, the meaning of those terms. is it problematic to you at all? >> i don't know. i mean, he also spoke about how difficult it is to make, you know, to bring these memories back 30-plus years later. i mean, recovered memories are unreliable in any case. y you know,...

But, you know, he doesn't say that. >> jamie roche, appreciate your time. >> with me now, david gergen, kirsten powers, jeffrey toobin and michael kapcaputo. i'm wondering, he's clearly saying based on what hi he saw his freshman year livinging in the same room with brett kavanaugh, judge kavanaugh wasn't truthful under oath describing his drinking and those -- the terms he was using. does that matter at this point? >> unfortunately, it may not matter as much as it should. i think one of the -- he was thoughtful and admitted his own weaknesses which i thought was important. it's very important...

Talk to them. that is not a serious investigation. this is a behind-covering exercise by the republicans who run the judiciary committee designed to say to -- to senators flake, murkowski, and collins, here, you happy? is this enough? let's get on with this. >> michael, should kavanaugh, should dr. ford, have been interviewed by the fbi? >> i'm not -- i don't know. i think that the fbi tends to interview the primary focuses last. it doesn't seem like they're going to do that. i've had enough exposure to the fbi in the last 18 months to know that a team of fbi agents can do more in a week than ...

Things he didn't like about kavanaugh and his friends was the way they treated women and in particular when you were talking about the use of the phrase, devil's triangle and boofing which were sexual terms. and he wasn't able to say for sure, i think, that kavanaugh used them, but what he could say for sure was what those words meant during that time. and that those words were sexual terms. they were not what kavanaugh said they were when he was speaking under oath. so, again, this is not about -- if this came up in a vacuum unrelated to a sexual assault allegation, it wouldn't matter. it wou...