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Are democrats doing too much to fuel anger instead of helping republicans get down to the business of improving obamacare? >> here's the thing, pamela -- republicans have no interest in improving the affordable care act. they want to throw millions of people off the health roles and that's what will happen. and by the way, they want to bankrupt medicare. look, republicans always wanted to destroy medicare, that's been, they've hated medicare. and what the affordable care act did actually, and this is an important thing, we don't talk about this it pushed off the insolvency of medicare, at leas...

On average ten times as much health care as younger, healthier people do. they could see it was a sham and that's why they didn't sign up. this new plan funds care for the seriously ill with tax dollars, rather than imposing the burden on premium payers in the individual market. those with preexisting conditions will be fully cared for. but the costs will be spread far more fairly over all taxpayers, rather than burdening people in the individual insurance market so premiums are going to come way down and health insurance will be affordable again. that is the goal. >> hold on. take a step back...

Have their aca, affordable care act bill, repeal, somewhere? the capital. we're going to look for it. >> it's not here. >> i can't find the bill. >> i know it was -- mr. lincoln, you are as upset with your party as i am. thank you all. >> joining me now for what i imagine will be a lively discussion, republican and former lieutenant governor of new york, betsy mccoy, the author of "beating obamacare: avoid the landmines." and joining us, democratic strategist jonathan tassini. thank you for coming on. lieutenant governor, i want to go to you first.

People won't have health care. unreasonable and high deductibles and here's an important part, pamela. it's going to shift an enormous amount of money to the 1%, the rich. which is what republicans do all the time. >> well let me point out, since i've actually read this plan and it appears that jonathan hasn't that none of that is true. >> well what's not true, betsy? >> just a moment. let me please finish and i will explain. first of all, 15 of the 20 million newly insured under affordable care act are enrolled in medicaid. and the plan does not throw anyone off of medicaid. >> so here's, her...

Question of people paying a, what betsy called a penalty. the problem actually with obamacare, the affordable care act, is the fine if you will call it for not participating, was too low. and if we, if we, and that, that basically put, that allowed young people, healthy people to opt out of the plan. what we need to do and i think there are some things that need to be fixed in the arch ca. we need to set the penalty at the lowest premium so people do essentially opt in. when you have participation -- >> sounds like jonathan wants -- >> let me finish. when you have participation, this is just a...